Police Chief Backpedals Over The Rainbow

While I think that all Police Forces in Texas should stop cooperating with TABC until this is resolved

The Chief appears to be blameshifting. Did the arrested ones go to the TABC jail? Didn’t know they had one in FW (or anywhere). Who is that in the dark colored police uniform in the picture? Is it FWPD? By the way, the picture is of the assault on Mr. Gibson (identified by his shoes).

What about the no Miranda rights read? Why no breathalyzers? What about Mr. Armstrong (who was also attacked and injured in the raid at the same time as Mr. Gibson – since there are supposedly two TABC officers on top of Mr. Gibson, then who assaulted Mr. Armstrong)?

What about the initial police reports? Did they report the assault on Mr. Gibson? Did they try to stop it? Did they say that Mr. Gibson ‘slipped and fell’ (without noting the fat cops brutally throwing him to the ground) ?

We aren’t going away. And we’re going to continue to demand answers.

BTW, where is the Mayor of Fort Worth? Haven’t heard from him. Not a word.

When is the Mayor going to issue a statement?

And by answers, we mean firings, criminal prosecutions, and convictions of officers (either TABC and/or FWPD).

Now, call me kooky but….let me get this straight…Halstead is now pointing the finger at the TABC and our CHIEF of POLICE is suspending operations with them? Why does this sound like I am listening to the re-telling of something that happened in a pre-school classroom? Hmmmmm…I wonder who else is not going to be their friend anymore.

Tom in Lazybrook… makes the foolish comment “And by answers, we mean firings, criminal prosecutions, and convictions of officers (either TABC and/or FWPD)

No inquiry whether it be within a criminal law court or a public forum can assess guilt prior to the investigation… you obviously believe in some sort of weird iranian style justice…

These officers probably have families that they support and you would want what? Kill their ability to make a living? Send them to prison? What law did they break?
Not one… i’m sure that of all the people at the bar that night at least 10% had an iPhone… why didn’t anyone video these attrocities? why? because it’s a lie.

… and don’t bother with any boring talk about being a victim… when a dude is drunk in a bar he’s breaking the law (gay or straight) If the cops come in and catch you, then they sack your ass up and drive you to the Mansfield jail to spend the night.

Where is Mike? In other City’s I’ve lived in the Mayor would be outraged and making statements all over the place.

Eddie… I believe it is you making the foolish comments.
“What law did they break?
Not one… i’m sure that of all the people at the bar that night at least 10% had an iPhone… why didn’t anyone video these attrocities? why? because it’s a lie.”

Were you there? How do you know? Apparently you must believe in ‘some sort of weird iranian style justice’ also. Or are you a cop defending your own? I think in the United States everyone is innocent until proven guilty- including the dude “drunk” at the bar.

Ash,

The “dude” at the bar is still technically innocent.. until his/her day in court… and they will either be found guity or not.
That’s for a jury to decide. I believe in due process for the people arrested as well as the law enforcement officers who did the arresting. Your ilk want some sort of tribunal to punish the police officers. You’ve made your mind up already. I haven’t. If someone can bring forth proof then I’m intestest… Video footage wouldn’t lie… it would capture the entire moment.

Regardingthe iPhone idea… why didn’t anybody document all this with video? I certainly would have. It doesn’t make since… and as for the “eye-witnesses” These witness aren’t courtroom worthy…

A good attorney would rip their testimony to shreds…
They’re all tainted with bias. Biased under the law because these witnesses have a personal interest in the outcome of the case. It’s called witness impeachment. If I’m accused of beating up my neighbor, my wife isn’t going to be a “good” witness for me because she’s got a stake in it. In other words she has a dog in the fight.

I still say you guys have an Iranian sense of justice that needs to be corrected.

What exactly are the witnesses “personal interest?” Because they are all gay? Do you think every person in this public place all know each other and for that matter like each other? Your implying ALL the witnesses would risk lying under oath to protect what? Their kind? Comparing your wife to a bar full of people (gay or straight) is a bit of a stretch…

Eddie-

Regarding the iphone idea- unless you just bought one last week- they are not equipped with a video camera… just an FYI.

I am so trembling right now. I just got off the phone with the internal affairs department for the Forth Worth Police, and the lady was not at all sensitive to my concerns. She was so cold the entire time, despite my passive nature during the call. She kept telling me the investigation is ongoing, so the dept. can’t comment. I asked then why did the police chief say what he said? Why wouldn’t he wait for the investigation to be completed before making public comments defending his officers? She did not have an answer. Here is the big bombshell: When I said this could happen to me or any of my gay friends, she asked, “Oh, are you coming to Fort Worth some time soon?” Unbelievably cold. Please call and let her know you want your concern logged for the police chief.

Call 817-392-4270.

I was there. I am straight.

I saw everything, the police brutality, excessive force… It is all TRUE.

ALSO:
I also witnessed no sexual assault, groin grabbing, or any of the other things the police said to make ppl like YOU say “THEY HAS IT COMING”

I watched the assault on Chad Gibson. Have nightmares about it, and just got an ambien presciption because I cannot get it out of my mind.

Ash,

I have a sprint phone that does video… I guess there’s just no proof then.

“personal interest”… the answer is yes you’re all kindred spirits… with the same axe to grind… members of the same clubhouse… much like if something happended to a bunch of republicans at a tea party event… even though they don’t nessessarly know each other, they’ll stick together as they’re compatriots…. understand?

I wouldn’t go so far as to say that you would deliberately perjure yourself… you’ve convinced yourself that you’ve received an injustice so in your mind you’d be telling the truth… it’s just not reality.
Mr Hodges…
give me a break… she doesn’t get paid to be “sensitive” to your concerns… i’m sure that every GLAD activist in the country has been bugging her… and now since you’ve posted her phone number a few more should call… you’re a real einstein.

Hi Eyewitness,

I’ve never met someone who is Omniscient. So you can see everything that happens in a bar? Pretty impressive.

Piece of advise:
Abien may be associated with potentially dangerous complex sleep-related behaviours which may include sleep walking, sleep driving and other bizarre behaviours. Abien is not to be taken with alcohol. Caution is needed with other CNS depressant drugs. Limit use to four weeks maximum under close medical supervision.

One more point…
I really don’t know if Mr Gibson attemped to grab the officer by the penis. If he did a reflexive response would be expected. I suspect that the bump on the head occurred after they zip tied his hands behind his back. The bloodwork demonstrates that he was pretty drunk and his balance was probably off. When one is drunk like this the use of arms is important for keeping your balance, then if you fall you can’t break the fall with your arms. Pretty logically… but the blame goes back on Mr Gibson for being so drunk.

Eddie-

For the record- I am straight and was not at the Rainbow Lounge the night of the raid. Clearly neither were you. Obviously though you are the one who has convinced yourself that there was no injustice done. Your closed minded mentality is what causes situations like this one. I guess that makes you the Einstein…

…Your closed minded mentality is what causes situations like this one…

caused what?
The police to do a routine inspection of a new bar? No Texas law caused that…

caused what?
Seven people to get arrested for public intoxication? No
Their choice to over do it caused that…

caused what?
A dude to bump his head?
Gravity

caused what?
A rabid response by militant actvists?
an inner sense of self-loathing

I don’t go out to bars anymore… I’ve outgrown it. But ten years ago… sure… and I saw some pretty crazy stuff.. can cops be assholes? sure… they generally are… but that’ part of hanging out into the wee hours of the morning… get over it.

eddie, you obviously don’t understand that gay people run the spectrum of humanity just like hetros. They are as divers a crowd as anyone. The reason you may not know that some of your family or co-workers or friends are gay is because they are in the closet. If I had been in that bar and saw something other than what everybody else is saying, I’d sure as hell let it be known. I’ve been around the world and have tons of life experiences and have been in gay bars from Abilene to Tokyo and I can say with 99.9999% accuracy that the groping did not occur. the story was concocted for the overactive imaginations of bigots who believe that all gay men are out to have sex with them. It just doesn’t fly anymore. People are not as ill informed anymore.

Eddie:

So glad you are phychic. You were not even there but yet you have such a clear vision in your head!

You should start a hotline and tell women to leave thier cheating husbands. I hear there is money in that.

I watched the entire incident with chad, from the conversation to his head injury. We were all so panicked and scared, did not think to start filming. Just wanted to find my large group of scattered friends and get out unscathed. If you have never been in the situation you cannot say what you would have done.

Eddie, I’m trying to follow your reasoning here. You assume that the witnesses here are lying, or at least remembering things selectively, to protect their own interests as a group. If it’s true that gay people can fudge the truth this way, then isn’t the same true of police officers? Why are you giving one side the benefit of the doubt and not the other?

Also, you dismiss the eyewitness accounts as “tainted” because everyone on the scene was gay or friends with people who were. But who else was likely to be at a gay bar? Straight people who don’t like gays (the only people likely to fit your definition of an unbiased witness) tend to stay away from such places. Had a similar incident occurred at a hip-hop club, would you dismiss all the witnesses there because they were African-Americans, or friends of same? You’re calling these people untrustworthy because of who they are. That’s not right.

ok let me explain this…
I’ve encountered similar situations with the police… when they do bar busts they come in and act like assholes… this is the role they play…
at 1:00 am in the morning they don’t know how the drunks are going to take their crashing of the party so they act hardcore… does it suck? yes obviously… its part of the deal…
the problem i have is that you guys act like this is some sort of unique thing that happened at your bar… it’s not… it’s quite common… do cops step over the line?… sure but not nessessarly because they’re afraid your gayness… they’re just dicks pure and simple and you’re reading way more into than it deserves…
maybe it makes it seem to have more meaning or significance in your lives… you weren’t targeted because you’re gay you were targeted because you were out drinking at late hours…
my arguement isn’t whether it happened or not… it’s a question of motive… and as for the claim that you were “scared” give me a break… grow a pair… their authority has a very short reach at the most you’d get a PI ticket… don’t take the breath test and it gets thrown out of court… again… it’s about motive…

Thanks for the cool avatar admin dude… wait where did it go? oh i mispelled my own name

The FWPD and TABC “inspected” two other bars that night. Presumably they have a record of other “inspections” they have made of other bars over the past year.

If the proportion of people arrested and injured at the other bars is within a standard deviation or two of the proportion of people at the Rainbow Lounge, then such incidents are indeed “routine” and unremarkable.

If the incidence is significantly out of the norm, then something is wrong.

I wonder why neither the FWPD or the TABC is providing such information?

The most simple explanation is usually correct.
a) No one in today’s environment is going to go pick on some gay people, especially the cops.
b) Drunk people do stupid things.
c) If you are falling down drunk you ***might*** fall down and hurt yourself.
d) If you are falling down drunk and you assault a police officer during a routine inspection, the probability of falling down and hurting yourself increases exponentially.
e) If you are a member of a group of people requesting special rights (not equal rights) you may tend to blow shit way out of proportion to further your cause.
f) Oh and Ash, I believe there was a firmware update to the iPhone (version 3.0) that was released recently that allows video capture, thus, I call bullshit on account of no video of the “incident.”
Conclusion: Drunk people do stupid things and get in trouble. Cut the cop brutality bullshit, grow up and go have a beer.

CWB: You would first have to take the first derivative of the function and then square it. Now, take that probability of the root cause of the standard deviation, run a chi square analysis and see if the P value is significantly different than the proportion of idiots that are at a bar coincident with a TABC inspection ***and*** decide that it would be a good idea to yank on a cop. Oh, and good thing I can add in order to make a post. Please….

Unfortunately, this situation is a reflection of the backwardness of Texas and it’s police techniques.

Texas will remain a backwater of civilization until it learns to treat all of its citizens as human beings.

Will it ever become a civilized society? (I don’t know if that answer is ‘yes’)

It’s kind of a shame that the talented journalism by the staff of the FW Weekly seems to be lost on it’s demographic, 20s to 40s white males who have never suffered any kind of injustice and will not stop the party for one second to consider what it would be like to live your life on the sidelines. marginalized and hated by so many people that you have to constantly think about every move you make. What happened that night and the consequential reaction by gay people across the country is the proverbial straw that broke the camels back. Like it or not OUR little city is going to grow up, even if we have to drag it kicking and screaming.

TonyJazz, People are flooding into Texas right now from all over the country because it is one of the only states in the black right now. Our economy is one of the strongest and our state government is one of the smallest. Texas is not backwards, it’s just not as sick as you would like to see it. Why don’t you move to Vermont.

CG, Only the poor little gays suffer injustice. Right? You’re not going to drag me anywhere without a fight. Someone has to stand for morals. This is petty BS. If you gays weren’t so flamboyant, no one would be the wiser. I really don’t care what you or anyone else does in the bedroom, but by God, keep it there. Leave our institutions alone.

CG, you have absolutely no idea what sort of shit storm you’re playing with. You push… We push back…
Nobody’s making you ride at the back of a bus, drink out of a seperate water fountain. Nobody’s even telling you where you can put your dick.
You want to pierce your face? Pierce it. You want a tramp stamp tatooe. Hand over the money and the dude will give it to you. You want funky colored hair? Stop by Sally’s beauty supply and go nuts. But, you’re not going to get any special rights. At least not in Texas. Move to SanFran or Key West. You’ve got all that you’re going to be given around here. You can’t make us like you. You can’t make us teach out kids that it’s alright. It doesn’t matter how many Oprah episodes broadcast to try and convince us. Trying to introduce hedonism into the Bible Belt is like trying to introduce rational thought into the Obama White House. On second thought maybe I’m wrong… why don’t you get the Sister of Perpetual Indulgence to show up an a FW City Council meeting to pursuade everyone (for those who don’t know what I’m talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisters_of_Perpetual_Indulgence

Yo Tony,

So what do you mean by “civilized culture”? I’m kinda confused. Do you mean…

A. A pre-sex enima
B. Free Towels at the Bath House
C. A Courtesy Reach-Around from your buddy Chip
D. The lights down low at the local road side park

Oh wait… I bet you’d say sumfin ’bout me bein’ tolerant of what yooz guys wanna do to each other.
See… I really don’t give a shit… i just what you to keep your shit at home like I do.

Sammy The Bull

Good grief, “special rights”? I thought that phrase went out with Tamagotchis. Even the hard-core gay bashers aren’t using that one anymore. Guys, I know this whole incident is reminiscent of the 1960s, but it’s 2009. You might want to update your code words, because you sound like very old men.

Kristian, We are not using code words here. I am not trying to be some 2009 gay metrosexual LBGTDGHOHFDPOS (whatever) either. The point is, TABC inspects bars randomly they, don’t target the poor little gays just to be mean. This is only opportunism. Again, this crap is being blown WAY out of proportion.

If “special rights” isn’t code, then what does it mean? As far as I can tell, the gay-rights lobby is pushing for equal treatment under the law with regards to marriage, military service, property rights, etc. There’s nothing special about this. Then again, maybe you all know something that I don’t.

As far as your point goes, you must admit that broken skulls and mass arrests don’t typically happen at bar inspections. Your explanation as to why it happened in this instance seems rather inadequate, especially since the people who were actually there say it went down differently. How do you account for that?

special rights…

marriage:
A gay man has each and every right that I have. Please provide me with an example of a gay man being denied the right to marry a woman?

Military Service:
The military forbids anyone (not just gays) from engaging in homosexual acts.

Property Rights:
Gays can own property.

Regarding your question about what happens at bar inspections… We have to allow due process to occur. Those arrested for public intoxication will have their day in court. I think that if they’re found guilty, the state should subpoena the credit card transactions to see if the bar overserved these people. If that’s the case, their liquor license should be pulled. Fort Worth might have really dodged a bullet here… as drunk as these people were, they could have killed someone.

Kristian, “Equal rights” is more of code because as Eddie put it, you know damn well that any man has the right to marry, serve and own property. What you gays want is a redefinition of the ancient and universally accepted definition of marriage. You want to shove your agenda in everyone’s face, including innocent children in California whose curriculum will now include how it is just so cool that “Jimmy has 2 dads.” To me, that is special. And people will continue to push back against this agenda.

Arrests typically do not happen at TABC inspections I suppose; however, I’d be willing to put money on it that typically, cops don’t get groped at inspections either.

Kristian bleated, “…especially since the people who were actually there say it went down differently.”

anytime you have homogeneous group of people (no pun intended) and they have a conflict with the authorities the group tends to develop a common narrative. I’ve observed this with bikers, skin heads, branch davidians, black panthers, and now I guess we can add another fringe group to the list… homosexuals.

Your arguments are ridiculous. Gay men don’t want to marry women, and lesbians don’t want to marry men. They want to marry the person of their choosing, which is what straight people get to do. What basis is there for denying them that right? Various states in New England have allowed gay marriage for a few years now. Where are the signs of precipitous moral decline? (Indeed, the local economies are getting some extra cash from the tourism trade.) The same is true for foreign countries where gay marriage is legal. The anti-gay marriage crowd says that letting gays marry hurts straight people’s marriages, but nobody seems able to say how that works. And the “it’s always been done that way” argument doesn’t impress me. For centuries various states outlawed interracial marriage. When we saw that those laws were cruel and inhumane, we did away with them. The sky didn’t fall.

The military allows heterosexual acts but not homosexual ones. What’s the logic there? And by property rights, I mean rights of inheritance and the like that gay people don’t have access to. How does that make any sense?

As for what happened at the Rainbow Lounge, you’re quite right. There will be some due process going on. That’s going to bear watching.

By the way, I’m straight. Not that it matters in the slightest.

Buddy, I believe what you are referring to is “groupthink.” I agree. Lemmings if you will. People inclined to use shortcuts to thinking.

I read about this thing these scientists in Switzerland are working on, kind of like a gas station except for it’s for your brain. ha ha, just kidding but I sure as hell wish there was one cause you guys are running a little low.

Kristian said, “The military allows heterosexual acts but not homosexual ones. What’s the logic there? ”

Not true… the military code of justice forbids adultery too and actively prosecutes officers that are caught. why? because it’s immoral.

Marriage is only possible between a man and a woman. To make an attempt to redefine it would be to tamper with natural law. The French did this after their revolution when they changed the number of days in a week from seven to eight… it failed because it violates nature. Naturally speaking a man and woman unite to produce offspring. Sodomy won’t cut it.

Kristian, the definition of marriage is a union between a man and a woman. You can’t redefine it. As Obama said, “words have meaning.” What next? What about the threesome that all want to be married to each other? Why don’t we allow brothers and sisters to marry? Where does it end? Again, gays do not want equal rights, they want special rights–like having marriage redefined.

Thanks for the announcement regarding your sexuality, it really gives credence to your argument. whatever.

Krisitan, one more thing. A gay person can leave property to anyone they choose through a will.

Buddy, right on. Thanks for bringing up natural law. The sexual urge exists for the purpose of procreation–to pass along one’s genes–to evolve. I guess homosexuality is really just an evolutionary failure.

speaking of evolutionary failures.

I feel like I’ve stumbled upon some undiscovered species.

Yea!! procreation!! right on dude!

There has been no mention on this blog about the fact that the raid on the Rainbow Lounge happened virtually forty years to the day (hour) of the Stonewall Incident, which sparked the modern gay rights movement. Both featured cracking gay skulls. In The Star Telegram Bud Kennedy has published two articles about the Sunday morning raid and NEVER informs his readers about the anniversary of Stonewall and how it relates to the raid on the Rainbow Lounge. Bud did mention a peculiar fact that all of the properties raided were owned by the same City Vending Company affiliate?

Samantha, do you know why he would point that out about City Vending? It is peculiar.

maybe samantha has stumbled upon another conspiracy… maybe just maybe the vending company is owned by a homosexual…. you guys are pathetic.

In case you missed this in this weeks Static section of the FW Weekly:

Wednesday, 01 July 2009 09:20 Static
In May, the Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce brought in urban studies theorist Richard Florida as the keynote speaker for its annual meeting. One of Florida’s theories is that cities that are inclusive toward gays are the ones that draw the creative types – artists, tekkies, engineers, university researchers – who in turn make the city attractive to others. But after the police raid on Fort Worth’s Rainbow Lounge last weekend, which left one man hospitalized with head injuries, the national media aren’t tossing many bouquets to Fort Worth for its inclusiveness.

The story just came out in the New York Times.
FW is officially on watch by the nation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/05/us/05texas.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&sq=gay%20fort%20worth&st=cse&scp=2

All of you guys that think this is crazy and over blown, Remember that this is Our city also. I love Fort Worth as much as anybody. It truly is for the most part a cool place, we have one of the best art and music scenes in the country. All we need now is some of our citizens to do some reading, do some self examination to see where all that hate is coming from. If your idea of tolerance is that you’re OK with gay people as long as they stay in the closet, well that is where the problem is. Some of you would probably be surprised that you rub shoulders with gay people all the time. You have friends and family that are gay. I can’t tell you how many gay men I know from here that married due to societal pressure to please people like some of the posters above. Many of these guys end up cheating on their wives. What kind of a life is that for them or their wives. And it’s not just a few, it’s like an epidemic here in the south. If things could be more transparent and people weren’t afraid to come out, so many problems could be avoided.

CG, Nobody here who opposes your viewpoint hates anyone. Thanks for pulling out the “hate” card by the way. We just disagree with the premise that where you decide to stick your junk should be in everyone’s face. Keep your choices in the bedroom. We are not going to attack people simply because they are gay, but we are not going to celebrate something that we know to be immoral, and you can’t force us to. You are always talking about tolerance. Where was the gay community’s tolerance for Carrie Prejean? She simply stated her opinion and look what happened to her. The hypocrisy is deafening. A few years ago, I was at Six Flags with friends. Unbeknownst to us, it was “gay day.” This was not advertised. What I witnessed were blatant displays of same sex groping, kissing, etc. It didn’t really phase me to be honest, but I really felt bad for the families that were there with little kids. Some probably saved their money to be able to take their kids. I heard several kids in line asking their parents “why are those two men kissing each other?” Funny how even children are able to realize when some behaviors are outside of the norm.

CG, We realize that you live in this city. As such, you are equally subject to the same types of inspections by TABC as everyone else. Plain and simple. If the bars that were inspected are all run by the same company, then maybe it was that company’s turn to be inspected. As for the injury, things like this happen to people who have been drinking all the time. Prove that it was due to police brutality and prove that this was a result of hatred toward gays. As for this happening on the anniversary of stonewall, pure coincidence. It is highly unlikely that earlier in the evening, the TABC and FWPD were sitting around thinking up ways to go gay bashing. What is more likely in my opinion, is that some gays were aware of the anniversary and when TABC and FWPD arrived at the bar, emotions rose and things happened causing the arrest.

Three weeks ago President Obama’s Department of Justice filed a brief defending DOMA (Defense of Marriage Act). This brief compares Gay and Lesbian relationships to pedophilia and incest, both hideous criminal acts. When the President of the United States defends this stance (DOMA) with insidious references, you better believe the trickle down affect of that policy: cracking gay skulls. Some in the GLBT community are not content to accept this assessment of their relationships and have pushed back REAL HARD, which in this country means withholding campaign donations (MONEY) to Obama’s Democratic party (who promised a repeal of DOMA on the campaign trail) and general kicking up the dirt with protests. Now, Fort Worth, Texas is on the gaydar. When a city organization (Fort Worth Police) and a state agency (TABC) team up and raid a brand new gay bar on the anniversary of the Stonewall Incident, one of the greatest civil rights movements in our era, the world will react to the violence in Ft. Worth. This is just another reason DOMA must be repealed: to stop the homophobic violence.

Ralph, you are wrong in so many ways. I wish there was some way for you to understand just how wrong you are. I have to admit I don’t know who Carrie Prejean is, but I’ll read about it now. One thing you need to really think about is when you call gay people immoral, Pleas try and remember where you first learned that. It has been passed down from generation to generation with no basis in reality. And when you say that you want gay people to keep their sex lives at home, well as far as I can tell we all do, I couldn’t agree more, same with hetros. When you are in love with someone, you want to hold their hand even in public, that is not about sex it’s about love. I know it will take some time for you to get used to the idea. do some reading, find a gay friend and talk to them.

I hear the weather in San Francisco is nice year round!

Ralph says “Keep your choices in the bedroom. We are not going to attack people simply because they are gay, but we are not going to celebrate something that we know to be immoral”
You are not morally superior because your straight you do not earn your sexuality its given to you. The majority of the world is straight but we still have rape, murder ,war, and poverty. So much for the straight moral superiority theory. Keri had the right to express her opinions and we have the right to refute it . No one is asking for your aproval its not your disision you dont have that kind of power only the constitution does.
when you can walk on water or bring back the dead then come back here and lecture me on your superiority.

“You are not morally superior because your straight you do not earn your sexuality its given to you. The majority of the world is straight but we still have rape, murder ,war, and poverty. So much for the straight moral superiority theory.”

I think this deserves repeating. Straights are certainly superior in the violent criminals category.

CG says: “I have to admit I don’t know who Carrie Prejean is”

Carrie Prejean is the beauty queen who said it is her to moral belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. Walking half naked on a stage with waxed hair and surgery enhance breast for million of American viewers thats all part of gods plan. Two men or woman in love well thats just wrong!!!!!!

Ralph says ‘funny how even children are able to realize when some behaviors are outside of the norm.”
Yes ralph the younger generation gets it. Acorrding to a number of polls 18 to 30 generation supports gay by 55% and its only going to get bigger.
I guess your going to have to live forever

The younger generation is being inundated with the gay agenda in schools, television, etc. It is “cool” to be gay right now. It is a fad and it is a choice.

marc, Carrie was expressing her view and look at how you attack her. Her being half naked on the stage has no bearing on the immorality of homosexuality. She was attacked simply for her opinion. You are all hypocrites.

The first amendment guaranties the right to free speech and prevents the government from throwing you in prison for it. It doesn’t guaranty the right not be criticize for that opinion (its called debate) pointing out the hypocrisy of surgically altering her god given body isn’t attacking her ITS POINTING OUT THE HYPOCRISY OF SURGICALLY ALTERING HER GOD GIVEN BODY. ( got to walk the walk if your going the talk) seems you straight people are always forgetting to do that

ralph says ” It is “cool” to be gay right now. It is a fad and it is a choice.”

Paper or plastic, republican or democrat christian or Buddhism would you like cheese on that those are choices . Oh by the way when did you you decide to be heterosexual?

I love it that Ft. Worth elected officials & Chief of PD are on the hot seat. They all deserve it!! They all have it coming.

Marc,

You say, ” ITS POINTING OUT THE HYPOCRISY OF SURGICALLY ALTERING HER GOD GIVEN BODY.”

Question for you…

Do you feel the same way about a gay dude who gets a doctor to give him a pair of titties? Or what about the lesbian that takes a little testosterone so that she can grow that hansome goatee to match that beautiful mullet she’s been working on?

Or what about the homosexual who repurposes his asshole and instead of using it for its god-given purpose (pooping) he decided to pretend that he now has a little vagina?

Please clarify it for me.

‘Tom Anable, a 55-year-old accountant who said he was in the bar during the raid, said that for more than a half-hour the officers entered the bar repeatedly in groups of three and escorted people out. Then around 1:40 a.m., he said, the officers started to get rougher, throwing one young man down hard on a pool table.

Minutes later, one of the state agents approached Mr. Gibson, who was standing on steps to a lounge at the back of the bar with a bottle of water in his hands, and tapped him on the shoulder, Mr. Anable said. Mr. Gibson turned and said, “Why?”

Then the officer, who has not been identified, twisted Mr. Gibson’s right arm behind his back, grabbed his neck, swung him off the steps and slammed his head into the wall of a hallway leading to the restrooms, Mr. Anable said. The agent then forced Mr. Gibson to the floor, Mr. Anable said.

“Gibson didn’t touch the officer,” Mr. Anable said. “He didn’t grope him.”

Two police officers and a second state agent arrived and helped subdue Mr. Gibson, kneeling on his back. A lounge employee, Lindsey Thompson, 23, said she saw an officer slam Mr. Gibson’s head into the floor while he was prone with his hands cuffed behind him.

The raid prompted swift action. Hours later, more than 100 people were protesting on the steps of the Tarrant County Courthouse. As the week went on, calls for an independent investigation grew, with a state senator, a group of local business leaders and two churches joining the chorus.’ New York Times, July 4, 2009

Marc,

You write, “Oh by the way when did you you decide to be heterosexual.”

Let me explain something to you, people who practice sexual morality choose to be that way each and every day. When a married man refused to fall to the temptations of another woman, he’s chosing to be sexually moral. When a teenage boy or girl choses abstinence he or she is diciding to be sexually moral. It’s a lifestyle choice. It’s fidelity. It’s self-respect. Just because you as a human being have an urge, that doesn’t mean that you should or must act on it. As a matter of fact many of the things that bring us pleasure are actually quite harmful to us. Drugs, promiscuity, over-eating. The act of not exercising (being a coach potato) feels good, and the pain/ discomfort of exercise is healthy. If you’re feeling some sort of attraction to men, you’re not obligated to act upon. Use your free will.

eddie
Dont care what she does with her body but if your going to tell people how to live there lives then maybe you should look yourself in the mirror

eddie says: “Or what about the homosexual who repurposes his asshole and instead of using it for its god-given purpose (pooping) he decided to pretend that he now has a little vagina?”
you use your penis to dispose of waste so does that mean your not suppose to use it for sex?

Sorry Buddy let me change the question
Buddy when did you decide not act on your gay desires?
let me explain something to you you did not earn your sexuality it was given to you its not a choice its who you are. Sure I could be pretend to be straight but there is no reason for me too I am happy the way god made me.

just wanted to clarify the Carrie Prejean thing. She based her answer on her religious beliefs, my point is if your going to set up rules based on religion than you cant pick and choose. God gave her the body she has, and if he/she is a perfect being in carries mind then if god wanted her to have bigger breast he/she would have given them to her. she made the rules Im just playing by her rule book

Samantha, Thanks for the info. We’ll add this one to the PLETHORA of stories circulating now. Which one is it? Funny how not one iPhone captured the incident as prolific as they have become. Funny how oppressed people in Iran facing true hostilities from their government (talk about cracking skulls and getting shot at) were able to capture events on their phones. Not one video? You better be thankful for the police we have. They do a damn good job. Shame on all of you.

Eddie/Buddy, Very good points.

Marc,

Let’s talk about penises and assholes for a moment.
The penis is a dual purpose organ. You MUST use to allow waste to leave your body and you MUST use it if you want to naturally procreate. It was designed that way. It’s that will with all mamals. An asshole is a single use organ. It has only one purpose… i.e. getting rid of waste. It’s not designed for sex. Provide me with one example from the lower species that engage in anal sex. The fact that you’ve confused all this in your mind demonstrats just how twisted you are.

So eddie all those heteros have anal sex with thier girlfriends are they sick twisted bastards? sex is sex and a hole is a hole get over your self. Eddie just becouse your think your clever doesnt make your smart. this was fun im out here back to the real world

OK – so the homosexuals think that a FW police & TABC joint effort bar check on a basically homosexual bar is singling them out? What about the other bars that are checked by these entities – heterosexual, cowboy, sports, and all the others that serve alcohol? Explain exactly where in the laws that involve public intoxication, assault on a police officer and resisting arrest say that YOU are not subject to the laws? I must have missed the parts where it says if you are homosexual! No one is above the law – not even homosexuals. Don’t ruin a perfectly good word like “gay” to describe your lifestyle – it’s anything but happy.

Marc,

If you’re still reading…

I think Eddie make an interesting point. I would suggest that it’s inapproriate for anyone to engage in anal sex. Its really unhealth when you think about. Bottoms are rather dirty. I think a larger point needs to be made though. There really aren’t gay and straight people but there are people who are sexually moral and those who are sexually immoral. The governor of SC would obviously fall into the catagory of sexually immoral for cheating on his wife and committing adultery.

Your problem is that most people are ashamed of their failings but you guys want to celibrate it and are even proud of it. You have free will just as the SC governor does. One isn’t born addicted to heroin or cocaine, but through a series of poor choices may become so. But even then, through free will the addict may kick the habit. This applies to the pracitioners of homosexual acts too.

one more thing… when losing an arguement liberals always engage in moral equivalence to shift the arguement… (e.g. well if this thing that we do is bad… then what about this bad thing that you do)

It’s nothing but a cheap debating trick.

Marc, this is the real word. I’m just sorry that you cannot handle it. If you feel so strongly about your lifestyle by all means, stand up for yourself. The problem is, you can’t justify your lifestyle. And heteros that engage in anal sex are misguided as well. Eddie is correct in his description of the purpose of various parts of our anatomy. The anus/colon is filthy and is kept separate from the rest of the body for a reason. Ever heard of enteric pathogens such as E. coli? They reside in the colon. All of these sexually transmitted diseases are passed along mostly because people are doing things that they shouldn’t be doing.

TEXAS WOULD NOT DARE TO ATTACK JEWISH PATRONS IN A JEWISH LOUNGE, BUT GAYS …?

Replace the label GAY with the label JEW and the entire western world would be in an uproar. One Jewish organization after another would threaten a boycott of Dallas/Fort Worth as conference centers for professional organizations (physicians, lawyers, teachers, librarians, etc.).

And what do we get? No apology from the police chief and a lecture from the local newspaper, the fairly influential FW Star Telegram. By throwing in a few crumbs, the Public Relations Dept. knows only too well that time will probably work in their favor with gay people being grateful that a little education program may get started some time in the future, and then it’s back to a subtler form of homophobia.

The local press has much to answer for. Imagine the following editorial in the Star Telegram:

“The Police Department informed THE STAR OF DAVID Lounge management in advance that an inspection would take place the night of PASSOVER. Why didn’t the managers educate the officers about the date’s significance? That’s need-to-know information for uniformed law enforcement officers showing up at a JEWISH bar on that date.

It’s also need-to-know for any JEWISH bar patron that laying a hand on a police officer will result in a quick trip to jail.

Drinking to the point of intoxication is a crime even in a bar. Officers tasked with enforcing alcohol laws must make sure local and state statutes are observed regardless of the date on the calendar, PASSOVER OR NO PASSOVER. The residents of Fort Worth who share the streets with bar patrons throughout the city expect as much.

Law enforcement officers also must follow agency procedures to make sure inspections are conducted professionally and legally.

Why would a police supervisor, six officers and two TABC agents knowingly risk their own careers, the reputations of their departments and a public relations nightmare WITH THE JEWISH COMMUNITY by engaging in targeted or overly aggressive enforcement against a RELIGIOUS minority group? We’re not sure they would, but as we said, there are more questions than answers at this point.”

Excuse me while I go throw up my breakfast–INDEED.

For the original editorial from the Star Ledger, identical with mine, except for the Jewish references, courtesy of Mark Reed, posted on July 3rd, 2009 at 7:27 am, click here:

http://www.dallasvoice.com/instant-tea/2009/07/03/letter-from-chief-halstead/#comment-11934

comparing stonewall to the Feast of Passover? how very bizarre.

Socrates, I’ve heard that “gay is the new black.” Now, gay is the new Jew??? You are equating religion and race with sexual perversion. How very bizarre indeed. No one is rounding you up and gassing you, no one is enslaving you. And no one is advocating gay bashing. How dare you. There is no comparison.

buddy says “one more thing… when losing an arguement liberals always engage in moral equivalence to shift the arguement… (e.g. well if this thing that we do is bad… then what about this bad thing that you do)
It’s nothing but a cheap debating trick’.

So if im told that anal sex is wrong and i bring up according to the cdc 38.2 of heteros engae in anal sex thats a cheap tick? hmmmi just thought it was the truth. oh and by the the way im not losing the argument

according to the cdc 38.2 percent of heteros engage in anal sex lol!!!!!
hey maybe find them all and lecture them on there life style choices
hey

Gonorrhea is one of the most common infectious diseases. Anyone who has any type of sex can catch gonorrhea. The infection can be spread through the mouth, vagina, penis, or anus.
that is why you use a codem ralph have you ever had sex? lol!

Hilda Hutcherson, M.D. is the author of What Your Mother Never Told You about Sex
Anal sex has been an accepted sexual practice for centuries. In some cultures, women engage in anal sex with their male partners for sexual pleasure while protecting their virginity. The anus contains a vast supply of nerves, and is one of our most sensitive In fact, some women are able to orgasm from anal stimulation alone. the anus is as clean as other parts of your body. It does contain its own natural bacteria,Pleasurable and does not cause harm to your anus or rectum. And as long as your partner does not have a sexually transmitted infection, neither semen nor sperm are harmful to your rectum.

Ralph maybe you should try it with your girlfriend or who ever you pay for sex.
maybe it will work for her and she can stop faking her orgasms

…see how this works…
frustrated marc begins to provide examples what he sees as examples of hetrosexual deviancy.

The reality is that each of those examples falls into the same catagory… sexual perversion… Marc and the guy who boofs his girlfriend are actually in the same catagory.

The problem with people like Marc is that he defines himself by his perversion.

lol if your going to hold your self up as a beacon of morality than you better walk the walk not just talk the talk . I dont think anal sex is a sexual perversion gay or straight thats your definition of it. I define my self as your equal endowed with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Your just obsessed with what people do in the bedroom which is really strange to me.

if you guys weren’t so flamboyant with it it wouldn’t be an issue. if gays left it in the bedroom… then there woundn’t be anything to discuss. you do have rights. the same rights that i do.

Holding hands kissing your boyfriend in the street isnt sex and if i want to do that I will. like you said I have the same right as you and there is nothing you can do about that.

I have the right to get a red mohawk…. it’s a free country.

…but (there’s always a but)

If people laugh at me, roll their eyes, shield there kids from looking at me… then they have that right too.

you can’t make people like you if you’re being freaky.

uhh right on! no problem with that in fact im laughing at you right now

Not with you at you.

Let’s do an experiment…

I’ll go to a San Francisco Gay Pride parade and read Romans Chapter 1 from a megaphone and you’ll go to a NASCAR event and hold hands with your boyfriend. Let’s see who gets their ass kicked first.

I actually think mohawks rock . shield there kids eyes from a mohawk lol! what decade do you live in are you on a commodor 64 ?

Hey Marc, promiscuous sex outside of marriage is how STDs are passed. Chances are, if you are married and faithful, you aren’t going to get an STD. Only a perverted moron would assume that anyone has to pay for sex. As a matter of fact I am happily married (the correct way) and have beautiful children (something that you may not ever experience due to your mental illness). In fact, you and your gay partner will NEVER have a child that is a genetic combination of both of you. How sad. AND, it is common medical knowledge that the anus is not clean. It is filthy. Where do you think most food poisoning comes from? It comes from people not washing their hands after handling food. And, anal sex can cause anal fissures and colon perforations that can lead to systemic blood infection. Not to mention a possible link to colon cancer resulting from distention of the tissue. One other problem later in life is the need for a colostomy bag or diapers because the anal sphincter muscles have been damaged. Better start investing in Depends Diapers.

buddy says:

“Let’s do an experiment…

I’ll go to a San Francisco Gay Pride parade and read Romans Chapter 1 from a megaphone and you’ll go to a NASCAR event and hold hands with your boyfriend. Let’s see who gets their ass kicked first.”

Probably me, but thanks for proving my point becouse when it comes down it thats all you have is your fist no moral superiority or truth to use in debate just your fist.

Marc, you missed Buddy”s point entirely. I have never seen some gays get ganged up on just because they are holding hands. I have however seen gays gang up on Christians (remember Prop. 8 in California and Carrie Prejean?). You are pathetic in so many ways…

carrie prejean had her assed kicked by a gang of gay people?
I think i got his point

getting your ass kicked by a nascar mob
verbally criticizing carrie for what she said
oh yes same thing lol

Marc, Because of the result of the vote on Prop. 8 in California the gays went nuts. They even disrupted church services. And yes, Carrie did not get her ass kicked, but she lost the pageant, and she lost her title–all because of her opinion on gay marriage. Real tolerant if you ask me. You did not get Buddy’s point at all. And have you heard of one of you getting their ass kicked by a NASCAR “mob.” I haven’t. You are assuming that you would get your ass kicked at an event simply for holding hands. I guarantee that you would not, unless you did something stupid like what happened at the Rainbow Bar the other night.

Marc said:

“getting your ass kicked by a nascar mob
verbally criticizing carrie for what she said
oh yes same thing lol”

Marc: Which one of these things actually happened?

she got physically beat up she in the hospital in a coma???
by the way i do know the answer to this that would be a no

carrie lost her title because she wouldn’t show up to the pageants sponsored events she also lied about posing nude and she did event outside the pageant with out consent its in her contract

Marc…

There have been instances of homosexual activists attended events which they saw as potentially provocative and the attendees would simply ignore that provocative behavior… now if the activist did a penis pull like your man at the Rainbow lounge the other night… things might have turned out differently… the organization I’m talking about is called “ACT UP”

Conversely, there are documented cases of evangelical groups witnessing in San Fran and being mobbed, In one case a young man was almost gang raped by a pack of rabid homosexuals out to prove a point.

I’ve included a link in case you don’t believe me.
http://www.ktvu.com/news/17986914/detail.html

Who is in a coma? I asked you which event that you brought up actually happened:

a) Carrie Prejean was verbally criticized, lost title, pageant, etc.
b) …getting you ass kicked by a NASCAR mob.

Which one (a or b) actually happened?

She didn’t lose the title donald trump let her keep it wasn’t till she wouldn’t show up for event thats she was fired
but my answer is c) Chad Gibson having his head bashed in by the Ft worth police

you told me I was missing buddies point about nascar and gay pride scenario and threw carrie in the mix. I than ask which is worse being beat up by nascar mob or carrie being verbally criticized the are both made up scenarios since carrie was fired for not fulfilling her contract not because her belief system

Marc, The Chad Gibson controversy is not settled yet. None of us know all of the facts of what happened that night. There are MANY different versions of what happened that night including his assault of a police officer.

Buddy’s point is, a christian would be more likely harassed for preaching on a San Francisco corner than two gays holding hands at the races. The gays would most likely be ignored. Carrie’s character was assassinated by a judge (Perez Hilton—aka the same idiot who called the black eyed peas’ manager a ‘faggot’ recently and got his butt kicked). The gay attacks on christianity lately are too numerous to post.

From a Solon.com article by Camille Paglia (an athiest):

“Another hot-button issue: After California voters adopted Proposition 8, which amended the state Constitution to prohibit gay marriage, gay activists have launched a program of open confrontation with and intimidation of religious believers, mainly Mormons. I thought we’d gotten over the adolescent tantrum phase of gay activism, typified by ACT UP’s 1989 invasion of St. Patrick’s Cathedral, where the communion host was thrown on the floor. Want to cause a nice long backlash to gay rights? That’s the way to do it.”

buddy says:

“Let’s do an experiment…

I’ll go to a San Francisco Gay Pride parade and read Romans Chapter 1 from a megaphone and you’ll go to a NASCAR event and hold hands with your boyfriend. Let’s see who gets their ass kicked first.”

Probably me, but thanks for proving my point becouse when it comes down it thats all you have is your fist no moral superiority or truth to use in debate just your fist.

July 5, 2009 at 7:44 pm
buddy says:

“Let’s do an experiment…

I’ll go to a San Francisco Gay Pride parade and read Romans Chapter 1 from a megaphone and you’ll go to a NASCAR event and hold hands with your boyfriend. Let’s see who gets their ass kicked first.”

Probably me, but thanks for proving my point becouse when it comes down it thats all you have is your fist no moral superiority or truth to use in debate just your fist.

ncrease in Crimes Against Gays since Passage of Prop 8
16 MARCH 2009 COMMENTS (0) AUTHOR: JAYSAYS

I previously speculated in a post (based on rough math) that after the passage of Proposition 8, a substantially higher number of hate crimes against LGBT people began to occur. I discussed that, in large part, the theory was based upon the fact that more LGBT activists were taking to the streets and making our community more visible to the violent majority. As if to confirm my speculation, the San Jose Mercury news is now reporting that 56% (14 out of 25 ) of all hate crimes reported in Santa Clara County California were based upon sexual orientation. This is a significant jump from 2007 with only three of the twenty reported hate crimes being “gay” related.

From the article:

here some stas for you ralph
hate crimes against gays 90s
ALABAMA 
James Primus, 35- murdered, set on fire in his car, 21 June 1993
ARIZONA 
Joseph Charles Holleran- beaten, assaulted, 24 October 1992, died May 1994 
Duane Linsley- shot, 16 January 1994 
Robert Haines- shot execution-style, 4 April 1994 
Michael Despain, 24- burned, 6 June 1994 
Thomas Frazee, 28- shot, 12 December 1994
ARKANSAS 
Chris Miller, 23- stabbed and beaten, 30 July 1993 
Ronnie Hugh Smith, 58- bludgeoned, found 25 February 1994
CALIFORNIA 
John Garfield- shot, 30 May 1992 
Cameron(Tina) Tanner- fall 1992 
Mauricio Bassa- murdered, 22 May 1993 
Keith Michael Ogden, 31- beaten, 7 July 1993 
Father Ronald Maupin- multiple stab wounds, August 1993 
James Graves- bludgeoned, 22 December 1993 
Tony Ray- shot, 24 March 1994 
Tommy Wenger, 24- multiple stab wounds, dismembered, 28 March 1994 
Therman Brown, 50- gunshot wounds, 4 July 1994 
Jon Simmons- gunshot to the head, 17 October 1994
COLORADO 
James Holman, 36- multiple stab wounds, 13 February 1992 
David Stewart- stabbed, 2 June 1992 
Benjamin Zesch, 61- multiple stab wounds, 16 July 1992 
*Robert Ferrell, 57- multiple stab wounds 15 September 1992 
*Anthony carr, 33- stabbed, 26 December 1992 
Randy Gonzales, 26- multiple stab wounds, 22 January 1993 
Steven R. Heyman, 47- bludgeoned, 2 November 1993 
*Bruce Hutchinson, 31- raped, bludgeoned 8 May 1994 
*Poul Anderson, 54- gunshot to the head, found 23 May 1994
CONNECTICUT 
James Maile, 25- bludgeoned, 10 December 1993
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA (Metro Area)
Sanford “Sam” Swift, 31- puncture wound to the head, 11 June 1992 
Jack Cowles, 74- stabbed and bludgeoned, 21 December 1992 
Kenneth Love, 42- head caved in, 21 December 1992 
Ana Maria Rosales, 24- shot in the face, 7 January 1993 
Alan Haskell, 30- strangled, 3 February 1993 
Ricky Godbolt, 33- bound, gagged, and stabbed, 16 September 1993 
Rogers Donahue, 25- bound, gagged, and stabbed, 16 September 1993 
Eric Moore, 22- shot at point-blank range, body hung from a hook, 3 January 1993 
Charles Logan, 47- multiple gunshot wounds, 8 January 1994 
Paul McClure, 47- strangled, 5 February 1994 
Frank W. White, 56- multiple gunshot wounds, 18 March 1994 
*David A. Jarman, 38- strangled, 4 April 1994 
Andrew Rowe, 53- multiple stab wounds, found 9 May 1994 
Marvin Greenwell, 55- multiple stab wounds, found 10 May 1994 
Stuart Jerome Moses, 33- multiple gunshot wounds, 17 May 1994 
Shelton Thigpen, 74- strangled, found 23 June 1994
FLORIDA 
James Flaherty, 52- stabbed, bludgeoned, and strangled, 14 February 1993 
Michael Cooper,- multiple gunshot wounds, 11 March 1993 
Craig Duncan, 20s- stabbed, March 1994 
*Albert Alcie Morris, 37- bludgeoned and shot, 19 May 1994 
*Walter Jammell Hinton, 43- murdered, 20 November 1994 
*John Hardy Roberts, 59- murdered, 15 March 1994
GEORGIA 
*Unidentified male transvestite, shot, December 1992 
Elizabeth Kelle Davidson, 25- shot, 14 January 1993 
Milton Bradley, 72- strangled and beaten, 5 May 1994 
*Unidentified gay man- killed by serial killer Gary Ray Bowles, May 1994
ILLINOIS 
Robert Harris- bludgeoned, 2 February 1993 
Dennis Johnson- throat slit, 31 October 1993 
Unidentified gay man, 70s- beaten, December 1993 
Unidentified transvestite- multiple stab wounds, 18 December 1993 
Unidentified male prostitute- multiple stab wounds, 31 December 1993 
William Lemke- multiple stab wounds, 9 April 1994 
Unidentified gay man- multiple stab wounds, 22 April 1994 

INDIANA 
Leta Dains- stabbed, 8 November 1992 
Pamela Agee- stabbed, 8 November 1992 
*Unidentified gay man, 22- murdered, 31 May 1993 
*Unidentified gay man, 50- gunshot wound, June 1994 

KANSAS 
Unidentified gay man, 20s- bludgeoned, found 29 October 1994 

KENTUCKY 
Jack Gilman- shot in the head, 9 May 1993 

LOUISIANA 
Unidentified gay man, 51- beaten, 24 April 1993 
Joe Balogg, 22- straight man stabbed by five men shouting antigay epithets, 12 November 1993 

MARYLAND 
Joey H. Jordan, 31- gunshot wound to the head, 6 July 1992 
Marvin Johnson, 29- multiple stab wounds, 2 January 1994 

MASSACHUSETTS 
Thomas Carey, 39- gunshot wounds, 14 May 1993 

MICHIGAN 
Susan Pittman, 56- shot at point-blank range by neighbor, May 1992 
Christine Puckett, 39- shot at point-blank range by neighbor, May 1992 
Bruce Andrews, 28- multiple stab wounds, October 1992 
Jeffrey Dansby- stabbed, March 1993 
David Converse, 51- stabbed, 16 July 1994 
Gary Rocus, 41- beaten and strangled, November 1994 

MINNESOTA 
Howard Liebhaber, 34- beaten and stabbed, 25 October 1992 
Terry Oliver, 27- beaten and strangled, found 29 January 1993 
Duane Swalve, 23- beaten and strangled, 29 April 1993 
Craig Green, 34- beaten, 26 May 1993 
Johnnie Williams, 48- beaten and strangled, 15 July 1994 
Steven Fox, 25- bludgeoned, neck broken, 20 July 1994 

MISSISSIPPI 
Robert Walters, 34- gunshot wound to the head, 8 October 1994 
Joseph Shoemake, 24- gunshot wound to the head, 8 October 1994 
Stanley King, 24- shot, 15 December 1994 

MISSOURI 
William Childs, 27- beaten, stabbed, throat slit, 22 April 1993 
Craig Johnson, 23- gunshot wound to the head, 27 June 1993 

NEBRASKA 
Brandon Teena, 21- execution-style shooting, 31 December 1993 

NEVADA 
William Metz- multiple stab wounds, 8 July 1994 
Anton Walker, 54- bludgeoned, induced heart attack, August 1994 

NEW JERSEY 
James Septimphelter- strangeled, 5 March 1994 
Harold Draper, 29- multiple stab wounds, 30 May 1992 
*Thomas Mulcahey, 57- dismembered, 13 July 1992 

NEW YORK 
Julio Prado, 39- multiple stab wounds, 11 January 1992 
Jesus Santiago, 24- beaten, 2 February 1992 
Bernie Walsh, 28- bludgeoned and stabbed, 12 April 1992 
Marsha P. Johnson (Malcom Michaels, Jr.), 46- drowned, 6 July 1992 
Victor Bones, 20s- gunshot wound to the head, 27 July 1992 
Vanathan Pleasant, III, 21- multiple gunshot wounds to the head, 19 July 1992 
Brian Burke, 36- bludgeoned, found 25 October 1992 
David Schwartz, 55- multiple stab wounds, found 9 November 1992 
Salvatore Caggiano, 50s- strangled and burned, 26 December 1992 
Stephan “Stephanie” Chapman, 20- gunshot wound to the head, December 1992 
Lawrence Andrews, 44- strangled and stabbed, 11 March 1993 
George “Joe” Ortiz, 40- multiple stab wounds, bludgeoned, 27 March 1993 
Roosevelt “Terry” Lewis, 30s- strangled and burned, found 3 April 1993 
Charles Lee- multiple stab wounds, 17 April 1993 
*Anthony Marrero, 44- stabbed and dismembered, 16 May 1993 
Milton Setzer, 60- throat slit, 29 June 1993 
Eric Price, 25- throat slit, 29 June 1993 
Dwight Greene, 44- bludgeoned, 8 July 1993 
James Seward, 42- multiple stab wounds, 28 July 1993 
*Michael Sakara, 56- dismembered, 31 July 1993 
Jimmy Hawkins, 50- multiple stab wounds, found 15 August 1993 
Mervin Wallace, mid 50s- strangled, found 30 September 1993 
Jeannie Fenmore, 48- gunshot wound to the head, 23 December 1993 
Pauline Campbell, 34- multiple stab wounds, 23 February 1994 
Bernard Friedman, 56- multiple stab wounds, 20 April 1994 
John Stella, 33- gunshot wounds, 1 May 1994 
Javier Munsuri, 40- gunshot wound to the head, found 28 May 1994 
Richard Whitesell, 32- multiple stab wounds, 13 June 1994 
Martin Parian, 20s- gunshot wound to the head, 13 July 1994 
Nelson Rawlins, 48- stabbed, found 30 July 1994 
*Benjamin Rosario, 45- dismembered, 3 August 1994 
Robert Kase, 44- 16 October 1994 

NORTH CAROLINA 
Carlos Stoner, 33- stabbed and beaten, 27 May 1992 
Gerald Taylor, 66- multiple stab wounds, 20 July 1992 
James Buchanan, 52- gunshot wound to the head, burned, 2 October 1994 
Jerry Lee Dowdy, 50- bludgeoned, 2 October 1994 

[On August 6, 1993, Kenneth French, a soldier from Ft. Bragg, walked into an Italian restaurant, spoke loudly about “Clinton letting faggots into the military”, and opened fire with a rifle and shotgun. Peter Parrous, 73, the restaurant’s owner, his wife, Ethel, 65, James F. Kidd, 46, and Wesley Scott, 26, were killed. Eight were wounded.] 

OHIO 
Unidentified gay man- gunshot wounds, 13 October 1992 
George S.- bludgeoned, mutilated, 10 January 1993 
Eric Farrow (a.k.a. Ashley-Ann Summers)- gunshot wounds, found 20 November 1993 

OKLAHOMA 
Unidentified gay man, shot, March 1993 

OREGON 
Hattie Mae Cohens, 25- smoke inhalation due to firebombing, 26 September 1992 
Brian Mock, 45- smoke inhalation due to firebombing, 26 September 1992 

PENNSYLVANIA 
Robert Hagan- throat slashed, found 9 August 1993 
Paul Steekman, 47- beaten, 3 April 1994 
Robert Harris- strangled, 5 October 1994 

RHODE ISLAND 
Roger Oliver, 23- beaten, near-decapitation 2 May 1994 

SOUTH CAROLINA 
Andre Jones, 33- bludgeoned, run over by car, 23 July 1994 

TENNESSEE 
Unidentified gay man- bludgeoned, 21 July 1994 

TEXAS 
Jose Rubio- multiple stab wounds, 1 July 1992 
*Leopoldo “Paul” Quintanilla, 29- multiple stab wounds, throat and genitals cut, 23 June 1993 
Nicholas West, 23- multiple gunshot wounds, 30 November 1993 
*Larry Leggett- multiple stab wounds, 25 January 1994 
*Joe Trevino, strangled and bludgeoned, 3 March 1994 
Michael Benishek- bludgeoned and throat slit, January 1994 
Tommy Musick, 48- multiple gunshot wounds, Feubruary 1994 
John Anthony Burwell, 26- multiple gunshot wounds, 2 April 1994 
Michael Burzinski, 29- gunshot wound to the head, 30 July 1994 
Larry David Allen- multiple stab wounds, 18 August 1994 

UTAH 
Doug Koehler, 31- gunshot wound to the head, 15 August 1993 

VIRGINIA 
*Unidentified gay man, 27- strangled, 28 June 1993 
*Unidentified gay man, 24- strangled, 3 September 1993 
Gary Watts, 34- multiple gunshot wounds, 10 June 1994 
*Henry Weatherford Jr., 50- shot, 13 June 1994 
*Garland LeRoy Taylor, 24- strangled, 17 September 1994 
Harold Coon- beaten and stabbed, 17 December 1994 

WASHINGTON 
Bradley Wantdler- multiple stab wounds, 20 June 1993 

WYOMING 
Roger Melner, 60s- bludgeoned, fall 1994

OXNARD, Calif. — Hundreds of mourners gathered at a church here on Friday to remember an eighth-grade boy who was shot to death inside a junior high school computer lab by a fellow student in what prosecutors are calling a hate crime.

Boy’s Killing, Labeled a Hate Crime, Stuns a Town
Ventura County Star, via Associated Press
Lawrence King in December 2006. A 14-year-old classmate has been charged in his death.

The New York Times
Oxnard is known as a laid-back beach community.
In recent weeks, the victim, Lawrence King, 15, had said publicly that he was gay, classmates said, enduring harassment from a group of schoolmates, including the 14-year-old boy charged in his death.

wants som more ralph
1000+ anti-gay hate crimes in 2008 FBI stats

“FBI statistics show there were 1,265 hate crimes based on sexual orientation in 2007, up from 1,017 two years earlier and 1,239 in 2003. That compares to 3,820 racially motivated incidents in 2007 and 1,400 in which the victim’s religion was a factor.

Because not all states allow attacks motivated by anti-gay bias to be charged as hate crimes and because some victims are reluctant to reveal their sexual orientations to police, gay and transgender rights advocates suspect the numbers to be much higher.

The vast majority of brutality against gays is carried out by young men, usually acting in groups, said Riki Wilchins, executive director of Gender Public Advocacy Coalition, a Washington nonprofit that works in schools to address discrimination.

Their victims most often are other young men with feminine demeanors or transgender women, said Wilchins. “These assailants are looking to eradicate and exterminate something that enrages them, and that is what makes them hate crimes,” he said.”

Marc, people are murdered every day. How do you know that all of these were simply because the victim was gay? I say that all crimes are committed based on some level of hate. If these were committed simply because the victim was gay, then that is absolutely wrong, but all murder is wrong, whether the victim is gay or not. We would have to have access to all the information regarding these crimes to determine motive. Nobody here is advocating violence against anyone. Murder = immoral; homosexuality = immoral, although obviously murder is by far the greater example of immorality.

What about these stats: Looks like some gays are murdering other gays
One-Third of HIV-Infected Gay Men Have Unsafe Sex: CDC
By E.J. Mundell
HealthDay Reporter

MONDAY, Dec. 3 (HealthDay News) — Two new U.S. studies of gay and bisexual men who know they are infected with HIV show that more than one-third have recently had unprotected intercourse.

In many cases, these men are engaging in unprotected sex with other HIV-infected men — a practice called “serosorting,” where partners with a similar, HIV-positive blood test status decide to forego condoms.

However, “we also found that almost a third of the men — 31.4 percent — said that they had had unprotected anal intercourse with at least one partner of unknown serostatus, and almost a quarter had unprotected intercourse with a partner who they knew was HIV uninfected,” said the lead author of one of the studies, Dr. Kenneth Mayer, medical research director at Fenway Community Health, in Boston.

He and other researchers in HIV/AIDS presented their findings during a teleconference Monday, part of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National HIV Prevention Conference, in Atlanta.

“There are now more than one million people estimated to be living with HIV in the United States, more than ever before,” said Dr. Kevin Fenton, director of the CDC’s National Center for HIV/AIDS, Viral Hepatitis, STD and TB Prevention.

He also noted that half of all U.S. cases of HIV infection still occur among “men who have sex with men” (MSM), the CDC’s umbrella term for gay and bisexual men, as well as men who may not identify as such but engage in male-male sexual activity.

And, Mayer added, unsafe sex was strongly linked to the use of recreational drugs, particularly methamphetamine, and was 60 percent more likely among younger men than older men.

The HIV epidemic in the United States may, in fact, be on the rise. According to recent media reports, sources close to CDC statisticians say that the annual rate of new HIV infections in the United States may soon be bumped up by 50 percent — jumping from 40,000 new cases annually to up to 60,000.

While not confirming the statistics, Fenton told reporters that a new method for computing HIV infections is being used by the CDC. “The new estimates are not final,” he said, adding that the numbers “are still undergoing rigorous analysis and scientific review to ensure the accuracy of both the new methods and of the estimates.”

New statistics on rates of unprotected sex among gay and bisexual men are more certain, however. In Mayer’s analysis, researchers had more than 500 Boston-area HIV-infected gay or bisexual men complete “behavioral risk assessments.” Three-quarters of the men were white, with ages ranging from 21 to 70.

The research team found that 37.3 percent of the men said they had engaged in unprotected anal intercourse over the past three months. In 41.3 percent of these cases, unsafe sex took place with another HIV-infected partner, but in 31.4 percent of cases the unprotected behavior took place with a partner whose HIV status was unknown. In 23 percent of cases, the infected man engaged in unprotected sex with a partner he knew to be HIV-negative, the study found.

Another study, this one led by CDC researcher Nicole Crepaz, found similar results. Her team reviewed data from 27 studies published between 2000 and 2006. The studies included more than 10,000 gay or bisexual men who knew they were HIV-positive.

“The team found that more than a third — or about 35 percent — of men in the studies reported having unprotected intercourse overall,” Fenton said at the news conference. Again, “serosorting” was found to be widespread, with 30 percent of the men admitting to that practice, the study found.

Black gay and bisexual men, especially, have been hit hard by HIV/AIDS, but another study showed them to be more likely to engage in safe-sex practices than their white counterparts.

In another CDC study, researchers examined data from 53 studies conducted from 1980 to 2006. The studies compared the safe-sex behaviors of black and white gay and bisexual men.

“Across all studies, there were no overall differences [by race] in reported unprotected receptive sex or any unprotected anal intercourse,” said the study’s lead author, Gregorio Millet, a behavioral scientist at the CDC. In fact, “among young MSM — those ages 15 to 29 — African-Americans were one third less likely than whites to report in engaging in unprotected anal intercourse,” he said.

Black gay or bisexual men were also “36 percent less likely than whites to report having as many sex partners as white MSM,” he added. Blacks in the study were also less likely to use recreational drugs, such as methamphetamine or cocaine, compared to whites.

Other studies presented at the teleconference showed close correlations between recent spikes in syphilis and gonorrhea among gay and bisexual men and rates of HIV infection in this population.

And, in a finding that puzzled experts, another study showed that circumcision — long thought to reduce HIV infectivity — does not help shield black or Latino men from the virus.

All of the new statistics confirm that much more must be done, the experts said.

“This shows that prevention messages have to be continually refreshed, and responsive to those who are younger,” Mayer said.

Marc, I agree with you, the increased visibility of the gay community could be one explanation for increasing violence, causing a “pushback.”

But I also blame federal policies, including the Defense of Marriage Act and the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy, which prohibits gays and lesbians from serving openly in the military, for creating an environment in which violence might be perceived as acceptable. Those discussions embolden people who have feelings of hatred like Ralph, Eddie, and Buddy.

Marc, Looks like religion will get you killed faster than being gay. To quote your statistic:

“FBI statistics show there were 1,265 hate crimes based on sexual orientation in 2007, up from 1,017 two years earlier and 1,239 in 2003. That compares to 3,820 racially motivated incidents in 2007 and 1,400 in which the victim’s religion was a factor.”

1,400 > 1,265

Very sad story regarding the 8th grader by the way. Murder is never justified–in this, we can be in agreement. Of all these murders you are posting, I seriously doubt that devout Christians are the ones committing the murders.

Samantha, My opinions on morality do not constitute hate. In fact, I prayed for all of you in church this morning. As Christians, we are taught to Love the sinner and hate the sin. I am not allowed to judge the condition of your soul, either. We are permitted; however, to speak out against immoral acts. I do not advocate violence against someone because they are gay. You are completely wrong to label our opinions as hate; however, this seems to be the buzzword that many people are using to further their agenda.

ralph says “Marc, Looks like religion will get you killed faster than being gay. To quote your statistic:

“FBI statistics show there were 1,265 hate crimes based on sexual orientation in 2007, up from 1,017 two years earlier and 1,239 in 2003. That compares to 3,820 racially motivated incidents in 2007 and 1,400 in which the victim’s religion was a factor.”

1,400 > 1,265”
omg! ralph do you research anything

Religion: 1,400 total

Here’s how it breaks down:

Anti-Jewish 969
Anti-Catholic 61
Anti-Protestant 57
Anti-Islamic 115
Anti-Other Religion 130
Anti-Multiple Religions, Group 62
Anti-Atheism/Agnosticism/etc. 6

[source, http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2007/table_01.htm%5D
notice anything its mostly anti jewish and islamic christian isnt in there geee i wonder why?

also i hate to break this to you but its not gays jumping in there pickup trucks to bash religouse people its a case of heteros bashing heteros

Guess what Ralph? We are all permitted to speak out against immoral acts. Which is why I am here debating the intricacies of blatant police and TABC brutality. You are naive if you believe there is zero corruption in our police force. Why do you think Police Chief Halstead severed the police departments raid relationship with TABC and has scheduled sensitivity training for the Fort Worth Police Department ? And why has Mayor Moncrief, asked for an independent federal review of the Rainbow Lounge Incident?
Because it is the morally defensible thing to do by todays standards. Merriam-Webster’s dictionary defines Immoral as ‘conflicting with generally or traditionally held moral principles’. You base your definition of morality on your church’s interpretation of the Bible and Christianity and I don’t want any of what your teaching. I have my own interpretation. And it does seem at times that you and your type do ‘hate’ the sinner. If you were the Christian you say you are you would be at JPS helping Chad Gibson and the first to call for an investigation into raid and the behavior of those involved.

Over the centuries people who misunderstood or misinterpreted the Bible have done terrible things. The Bible has been misused to defend bloody crusades and tragic inquisitions; to support slavery, apartheid, and segregation; to persecute Jews and other non-Christian people of faith; to support Hitler’s Third Reich and the Holocaust; to oppose medical science; to condemn interracial marriage; to execute women as witches; and to support the Ku Klux Klan. Shakespeare said it this way: “Even the devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.”

ralph “says Love the sinner and hate the sin’

God! I just love that talking point. Did you no its not even in the bible Mahatma Gandi said it and it been used to do violence to people ever since.
Hate the sin not the sinner That’s not love. That’s condescension. Basically your telling people you love them even though you hate everything that makes them who they are, that way you can exert your moral superiority and no one can call you on being a bigot.

I encourage anywho who’s reading about all this and smells a rat like I do to call the Mayor’s office to offer your support for the police officers. I’ve already called my council person, the mayor, and the police chief. We know that the gay crowd has been doing their fair share of calling (and I’ll bet most of them aren’t even citizens of Fort Worth) so I figure we should call too. We need to make sure that the politicans don’t make these law enforcement officials scapegoats. The only “power” the gays have is to march (a wimpy 100 people – big turnout huh) and call on the phone. We’ll let’s get those phones ringing!

Yes all 6 people following this thread call
keep those phones ringing for 5 to 6 minutes

Marc, I’m at work–be sure that I will post more later. You do realize that Catholics and Protestants are classified as Christian, don’t you? They are represented in the stats that you quote. In addition, I stated that RELIGION would get you killed faster than being gay, according to the stats. I did not qualify the statment by stating “Christians.”

Marc says:

“ralph “says Love the sinner and hate the sin’

God! I just love that talking point. Did you no its not even in the bible Mahatma Gandi said it and it been used to do violence to people ever since.
Hate the sin not the sinner That’s not love. That’s condescension. Basically your telling people you love them even though you hate everything that makes them who they are, that way you can exert your moral superiority and no one can call you on being a bigot.”

Marc, you can call me whatever you like, that does not change the objective truth that homosexuality is a perversion. Maybe the exact verbatim is not in the Bible; however, the principle is there. Ever heard of Mary Magdalene the prostitute that Jesus forgave and saved from being stoned? Your lack of grammar, your lack of understanding that Catholics and Protestants are in fact subsets of Christianity, your quickness to insult, and your interpretation of statistics is seriously putting your ignorance on display.

To quote Marc once again:

“Basically your [sic] telling people you love them even though you hate everything that makes them who they are, that way you can exert your moral superiority and no one can call you on being a bigot.”

I do not hate everything that makes you who you are. And it is truly sad that where you choose to copulate apparently completely defines you–your words, not mine. So, homosexuality defines your entire being? It must truly be depressing to be led completely by your sexuality and to allow yourself to be completely defined by your sexual preference. Wow. I think I’m starting to understand things a little better. Thank you for the insight. I can see why you attack people who do not agree with you. You are simply defending the one thing you think makes you who you are-your perversion.

Nope highest one on there is Jewish alnost a thousand ( I noticed you didn’t mention them hmmmmm interesting)
and the violence direct roars them is by white Christian supremist groups
also this is case of straights killing straights what’s that got to do with gay people?
Tend to your own than come see me

And….now to quote Samantha:

“You base your definition of morality on your church’s interpretation of the Bible and Christianity and I don’t want any of what your teaching. I have my own interpretation. And it does seem at times that you and your type do ‘hate’ the sinner. If you were the Christian you say you are you would be at JPS helping Chad Gibson and the first to call for an investigation into raid and the behavior of those involved.”

Samantha, I didn’t really think that you would want to hear anything about the truth. Point taken. Again, I do not hate the sinner. I don’t care what it “seems” like. Most hospitals do not allow visitors that are not family members, by the way. As for the “raid,” do you really think that the TABC and FWPD would premeditate a gay bashing event? Highly unlikely. In fact, completely unlikely since the agencies alerted the bar owner earlier in the day that they would be visiting. Do you think these officers would put their career’s on the line like that? I don’t. And by “calling for an investigation on those involved,” does this include an investigation into the drunk gentleman as well?

Your logic is just awsome!
Marc straight people would much rather bashing in the faces other faiths
than than beating on gay people . You do realize it’s one religion attacking the other don’t you ?

I can’t wait for the answer you may be a bigot but your entertaining they way you been logic it’s wonderful !

Marc, surely you jest. I guess I need to be more explicit and, to quote you:

“notice anything its mostly anti jewish and islamic christian isnt in there geee i wonder why?”

See? You say Christian isn’t in there. Well I am saying to you that the last time I checked, Catholics and Protestants are Christians. Please show me your data that shows that these Jewish people were killed by “white christian supremacist groups.” More than likely, some were, but do you have the numbers?

Another quote:

“also this is case of straights killing straights what’s that got to do with gay people?”

We are comparing (I thought) reasons for hate crimes–hate crimes based on religion versus hate crimes based on sexual preference. I stated previously that, by the numbers, religion was greater than gays.

How many gays were infected by other gays who did not disclose that they were HIV positive and did not use protection? This seems very hateful to me. Any thoughts? I noticed that you ignored this from a post of mine earlier?

And again:

“Tend to your own than come see me”

I don’t even know what this means.

Marc, Your language is becoming very tedious to navigate. You did finish 6th grade, didn’t you? So, it is just Christians killing everyone else? I seem to recall that Muslims and Jews do not get along very well. Any chance that some of the Jewish murders were at the hands of Muslims? This whole “hate crime” farce is rather tiring as well. So, some gay guy is walking down the street, gets mugged at random and it is possible that this is classified as a “hate crime.” Sounds to me that the numbers could be over-inflated.

Did the FBI stats state that every non-Catholic and non-Protestant murder was committed by a Christian?

Yes were comparing your correct straights bash and kill almost as many gay people as the do people of faith Uhhhh you got me lol!!!!??

Marc, I didn’t think you would respond intelligently. Do the numbers even show that crimes committed against religious groups were ALL committed by those belonging to another religious group?

Sucks about the Jewish people they have the highest number of hate crimes far more than other faiths ohwell at least they can be comfortable in the fact that they are the chosen people and no Christian can take that from them

Yes they go to the link I left read forrest read!

Who the hell do you think does these crimes. Gays?
Are you kidding me religeon vs religeon is as old as the god you worship
here’s a example Germany ww two the Christian Nazis wanted to wipe the Jews of. The map are you really this cluless?

I think this thread is dead–anyone else care to comment? Marc, I can barely understand what you are saying now. Lay off whatever it is you are doing.

Marc, by the way, that link you left does not state that Christians were those who murdered those of the other religious groups. Why won’t you talk about the gays with HIV knowingly having unprotected sex? This is assault, gays hurting gays.

Marc, The Old Testament (Jewish portion of the Bible) forbids homosexuality. If you believe that they are God’s chosen people (I do) then you must also believe that the law that they followed was from God.

I concur with Ralph. Marc you obviously aren’t good at multi-tasking. Tell Bruce that you’ll have to play with him later; it’s affecting your concentration.

I just wanted to make a few points not directly related to the arguement.

You’re vs. Your

You’re is the contracted form of You are. This form is used in sentences using “you” as the subject of the sentence with the verb “to be” used as either the helping verb (e.g. You’re going …, You’re watching …) or the principal verb of the sentence.

They’re vs. There vs. Their

They’re is the contracted form of They are. This form is used in sentences using “they” as the subject of the sentence with the verb “to be” used as either the helping verb (e.g. They’re going …, They’re playing …) or the principal verb of the sentence.

and now moving away from grammar to history…

The Nazis were not Christian. They were pagan.

read about it here…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Himmler's_Great_Chair

We may not help you with your sexual orientation, but by damned we’re going to help you with your grammar.

Professor “Buddy”

Adolf Hitler & Christian Nationalism:

A popular image of the Nazis is that they were fundamentally anti-Christian while devout Christians were anti-Nazi. The truth is that German Christians supported the Nazis because they believed that Adolf Hitler was a gift to the German people from God. German Christianity was a divinely sanctioned religious movement which combined Christian doctrine and German character in a unique and desirable manner: True Christianity was German and True German-ness was Christian.

Wow you can copy and paste isn’t google great?
Common Mistakes in English – You’re vs. Your
You’re is the contracted form of You are. This form is used in sentences using ” you” as the subject of the sentence with the verb “to be” used as either the helping verb (e.g. You’re going …, You’re watching …) or the principal verb of the sentence. Examples: You’re going to have a great time! …
esl.about.com/od/grammarintermediate/a/cm_your.htm – Cached – Similar

Good to have you back…

please tell where you sifted that little nugget of nonsense… wait… I’ll help.

atheism.about.com

Could you find a more biased source? Not Hardly.

how pathetic.

http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/Adolf_Hitler_Nazi_Germany_Christian_Nationalism_AntiSemitism.htm

oh after you threatened I had thought you ran a way?

I’m just trying to help you be a better man.

Germany was a christian nation Hitler was a christian. The nazi iron cross was modeled after the one in his church. All german soldiers wore belt buckle . “Gott Mit Uns” tranlsates to “God’s with us”.

oh buddy I have no problems with my manhood that seems to be your hang up

Marc, By the display of his actions, Hitler was no Christian. You see, it is not enough to claim to be Christian, you have to act Christian. That is why I don’t advocate violence against gays. That is also why I do not advocate homosexuality, either. By the way, have you any idea how many Catholics, including priests and nuns, that Hitler killed?

Marc,
As much fun as it is exploring your (not you’re) complete lack of understanding of history, let’s switch gears a moment as see how far along the liberal spectrum your views go. We’ll start with the cornerstone question of liberalism.

Do you support a woman’s right to choose? Are there any situations whereby you think it’s wrong to allow abortion?

Im not a liberal, and this is not what we are talking about.

If Science ever proves that there is a “gay gene”, what sort of implications would it have with regard to abortion? I’ve hear that 9 out of 10 babies w/ Down syndrome are aborted. Would the same thing happen with gay babies?

I’ve always known that 100% HETEROSEXUAL men have no problem with gay men.

Henry E. Adams, Lester W. Wright’ Jr., and Bethany A. Lohr conducted this research at the Psychology Department of the University of Georgia, where Dr. Adams is now professor emeritus.

Hostility and discrimination against homosexual individuals are well-established facts. On occasion, these negative attitudes lead to hostile verbal and physical acts against gay individuals with little apparent motivation except a strong dislike. In fact, more than 90% of gay men and lesbians report being targets of verbal abuse or threats, and more than one-third report being survivors of violence related to their homosexuality. Although negative attitudes and behaviors toward gay individuals have been assumed to be associated with rigid moralistic beliefs, sexual ignorance, and fear of homosexuality, the etiology of these attitudes and behaviors remains a puzzle. Weinberg ( 1972 ) labeled these attitudes and behaviors homophobia, which he defined as the dread of being in close quarters with homosexual men and women as well as irrational fear, hatred, and intolerance by heterosexual individuals of homosexual men and women. . . .

Although the causes of homophobia are unclear, several psychoanalytic explanations have emerged from the idea of homophobia as an anxiety-based phenomenon. One psychoanalytic explanation is that anxiety about the possibility of being or becoming a homosexual may be a major factor in homophobia. For example, de Kuyper (1993) has asserted that homophobia is the result of the remnants of homosexuality in the heterosexual resolution of the Oedipal conflict. Whereas these notions are vague, psychoanalytic theories usually postulate that homophobia is a result of repressed homosexual urges or a form of latent homosexuality. Latent homosexuality can be defined as homosexual arousal which the individual is either unaware of or dent. Psychoanalysts use the concept of repressed or latent homosexuality to explain the emotional malaise and irrational attitudes displayed by some individuals who feel guilty about their erotic interests and struggle to deny and repress homosexual impulses. In fact, West stated, ‘when placed in a situation that threatens to excite their own unwanted homosexual thoughts, they overreact with panic or anger.” Slaby ( 1994 ) contended that anxiety about homosexuality typically does not occur in individuals who are same-sex oriented, but it usually involves individuals who are ostensibly heterosexual and have difficulty integrating their homosexual feelings or activity. The relationship between homophobia and latent homosexuality has not been empirically investigated and is one of the purposes of the present study.

Specifically, the present study was designed to investigate whether homophobic men show more sexual arousal to homosexual cues than nonhomophobic men as suggested by psychoanalytic theory. . . .

The results of this study indicate that individuals who score in the homophobic range and admit negative affect toward homosexuality demonstrate significant sexual arousal to male homosexual erotic stimuli. These individuals were selected on the basis of their report of having only heterosexual arousal and experiences. Furthermore, their ratings of erection and arousal to homosexual stimuli were low and not significantly different from nonhomophobic men who demonstrated no significant increase in penile response to homosexual stimuli. These data are consistent with response discordance where verbal judgments are not consistent with physiological reactivity, as in the case of homophobic individuals viewing homosexual stimuli. Lang (1994 ) has noted that the most dramatic response discordance occurs with reports of feeling and physiologic responses. Another possible explanation is found in various psychoanalytic theories, which have generally explained homophobia as a threat to an individual’s own homosexual impulses causing repression, denial, or reaction formation (or all three; West, 1977 ). Generally, these varied explanations conceive of homophobia as one type of latent homosexuality where persons either are unaware of or deny their homosexual urges. These data are consistent with these notions.

From my own personal life experience I know it to be true that some latent homosexual men (closet cases) will go to any length to throw the trail off of them, even violence.
Being gay in the south, you are privy to things that most people aren’t and that is you personally know many many men who are in the closet. These men are not the typical gay’s that come to mind. These are your fathers, husbands, brothers and friends. Many (when I say many, I mean epidemic proportions) of them detest these protests by out and open gays because it draws to much attention to their little secret. They prefer the secrecy of it, hoping never to get caught. Those of you that still believe that all homosexuals are cut out of the same mold and have an “agenda” need to do some research.

A few thoughts on CG’s post…
Homophobia- a fear of homosexuals…
Based on the Greek root φόβος or phóbos, which translates as morbid fear.
The root term “-“phobia” is accusatory and is used as a distraction by militant gay rights protestors. The reality is that most people who oppose homosexuality aren’t any more afraid of it than someone who opposes littering is fearful of the guy who throws his beer cup out of the truck window.
But to take your argument to its logical conclusion,
If someone suffers from say… Coulrophobia … does that means that this person really has an attraction to clowns and possibly even has secret desires to join the circus? It’s ridiculous.
This is merely a tired old debate trick dressed up in the trappings of pop-psychology.
Try again CG.

Senior Felix, When was the last time you heard of a person that suffers from Coulrophobia beating up a clown.

The fact is that society wouldn’t shame anyone who wanted to become a clown. Society puts unbelievable pressure on young men to be straight. The fear of possibly thinking that you might be gay and knowing the treatment by society that will follow is enough to drive these men to do horrible things.

CG, I appreciate the intelligent post, especially after Marc’s attempts; however, I would classify much of psychology as pseudoscience. Basically, what you are trying to convey is that gay bashers are actually gay themselves, or at least have a tendancy. That puts an interesting spin on Marc’s arguments regarding the FBI hate crime stats.

Does anyone care to comment on my post regarding HIV positive gays that have unprotected sex and fail to mention their infection? Again, this seems pretty hateful to me. Should this behavior be classified as a hate crime?

CG, using the same logic, I suppose that people who commit crimes against a certain religious group really just want to join the victim’s religion.

Channel 11 News reports that Chad Gibson’s alcohol level was at .2
.08 is the legal limit.

http://cbs11tv.com/local/Rainbow.Lounge.Raid.2.1068192.html

If Mr. Gibson weighs 160 lbs, that would mean that he had probably consumed seven drinks. I’d like to know who served him this? That establishment is responsible for overserving.

And furthermore:
When one’s blood alcohol level is at .2 one displays the following characteristics:
Over-Expression
Emotional Swings
Anger or Sadness
Boisterous Behavior
Slow Reaction Time
Gross Motor Control
Staggering
Slurred Speech

Should we add crotch grabbing to the list?

Ralph, again I believe that in an open and transparent society we would not have these problems.
The stigma and discrimination against homosexuals in society have prevented gay men from revealing their sexual orientation or taking HIV/AIDS tests and treatments.

Also Ralph the parallel you are trying to draw about someone bashing a religion and someone bashing gays doesn’t ring true. The pressure that society puts on a young man to be straight and the repercussion that he knows would be heaped on him if he were honest, leads some men to do violent and hateful things. In other words they don’t really hate gays the way some religions hate each other. They hate the thought of society finding out that they might be gay and they will go to any length to prove to society that they are not.

Senior Felix, I found the police “alcohol calculator” that you used and the result came up with none of what you listed.
It came up with “Possible Impairment” .2 is a long way from .8.

If we were sure that the truth would come out about the “crotch grabbing” at some point. I would bet good money that it didn’t happen. Why do you feel the need to slander someone like that.

cg,

so you see these “gay bashers” as potential sex partners?

dudley, your question is an attempt to perpetuate a stereotype in the already over active imaginations of bigots.

Before I get slammed over the blood alcohol level thing… I mis read that, but still even at .2 the calculator only shows “Possible Impairment” only. And even at swinging from the chandeliers drunk, I still don’t buy the crotch grabbing story.

Dudley,

Makes one rethink the expression “if you can’t beat ’em join ’em” huh?

CG, It is important to note that there was an amount of time between the alleged “crotch grab” and the point at which blood alcohol was measured. You have to subtract 0.01 units for every 40 minutes after the last drink to account for the metabolized alcohol. So it is likely that his blood alcohol level was at least 0.21. Therefore, the behaviors that senor felix listed are plausible, according to Virginia Tech and the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR). In fact, to be accurate, you would also have to add stupor, loss of understanding, impaired sensations, severe motor impairment, loss of consciousness, and memory blackout to the list.

It is also highly likely that most witnesses were also drinking at the time, which immediately calls into question any testimony.

CG says
“I’ve always known that 100% HETEROSEXUAL men have no problem with gay men.”

hey CG have you ever read this study? I actually saw this study on tv, but looked up real quick you got to at least read the end. your have a point cg
Researchers Henry Adams, Lester Wright, Jr., and Bethany Lohr University of Georgia this study, 64 self-reported straight males with a mean age of 20.3 years were divided into two groups (“non-homophobic men” and “homophobic men”) on the basis of their scores on a questionnaire measure of aversion to gay males. Here, homophobia was operationally defined as the degree of “dread” experienced when placed in close quarters with a homosexual—basically, how comfortable or uncomfortable the person was in interacting with gay people. Each participant then agreed to attach a penile plethysmograph to his penis. this plethysmograph device is “a mercury-in-rubber  circumferential strain gauge used to measure erectile responses to sexual stimuli. When attached, changes in the circumference of the penis cause changes in the electrical resistance of the mercury column.” Previous research with this apparatusconfirmed that significant changes in circumference occur only duringsexual stimulation during sleep.
Next, the participants were placed in a private chamber and presented with three 4-minute segments of graphic pornography. The three video snippets represented straight porn (scenes of fellatio and vaginal intercourse), lesbian porn (scenes of cunnilingus or tribadism), and gay male porn (scenes of fellatio and anal intercourse). Following each randomly ordered video presentation, the participant rated how sexually aroused he felt and also his degree of penile erection. Can you guess the results?
Both groups—non-homophobic and homophobic men—showed significant engorgement to the straight and lesbian porn and their subjective ratings of arousal matched their penile plethsymograph measure for these two types of video. However, as predicted, only the homophobic men showed a significant increase in penile circumference in response to the gay male porn: specifically, 26 percent of these homophobic men showed “moderate tumescence” (6-12 mm) to this video and 54 percent showed “definite tumescence” (more than 12 mm). (In contrast, for the non-homophobic

Ralph says “by the way, have you any idea how many Catholics, including priests and nuns, that Hitler killed?”

wiki answers .com
Although the true figure may never be known, here are estimates:
11 million people died.
6 million of these were Jewish (close to two thirds of Europe’s Jewish population).
Up to 250,000 were Roma/Sinti (Gypsies).
1.5 million were children.
In addition, Hitler targeted homosexuals, communists and other political dissidents, , slavs, Jehovah’s Witnesses, dissidents, some Protestant pastors and Catholic priests, black people, the mentally and physically disabled, and others. The figures include the camps as well as the mass graves in the countryside, killings on the street, organized mass shootings (such as Babi Yar, etc.) and basically, any person singled out for their religion, political beliefs, or their sexual orientation.
According to the documentury paragrah 7 about 100,000 gays were killed

wiki answers.com

Hitler wasn’t keen on the Catholic church as he believed that anyone who was loyal to the pope couldn’t be loyal to him. That said, many senior officers and Nazis were at least nominal Catholics and there is no evidence that anyone was killed JUST for being a Catholic. The main resistance movement in Austria was the Catholic Resistance, and members were shot, but it was because of their resistance rather than their faith.

Marc,

Thank you for making my point that Hitler killed anyone who would not join the Nazis. Hitler was no Christian. The Nazis were not Christian. This was your earlier claim.

And as for the research study, the subjects were “self-identified.” Anyone could claim that they were heterosexual to adulterate the study. This is why I see psychology as a pseudoscience. People’s minds do not make very good subjects because there is no objective way to know what someone is actually thinking–unless you know of a way to read minds.

Does anyone care to comment on my post regarding HIV positive gays that have unprotected sex and fail to mention their infection? Again, this seems pretty hateful to me. Should this behavior be classified as a hate crime? Any thoughts? Anyone? I find it very interesting that no one will attempt an answer.

Yes nazis were Christian, and germany was a Christian nation, and yes they let it happen.

They didn’t need to read minds. First they questioned the subjects, and after that used a device to measure erections its a simple straightforward study. If a person tells you they do not like gays, Im pretty sure he is telling the truth, and the device measures increases in size. You are truly in denial of the facts.

Each participant then agreed to attach a penile plethysmograph to his penis. this plethysmograph device is “a mercury-in-rubber circumferential strain gauge used to measure erectile responses to sexual stimuli. When attached, changes in the circumference of the penis cause changes in the electrical resistance of the mercury column.” Previous research with this apparatusconfirmed that significant changes in circumference occur only duringsexual stimulation during sleep.

Yes if a HIV gay or straight person has unprotected sex, I agree its a crime.
its only a hate crime if HIV gay rapes a heterosexual

Any dude that would agree to have someone attach a “penile plethysmograph” to his penis would have to be a homosexual. Come on. Who comes up with this shit?

as for the Nazi thing…

I’d like to know how ‘ol Marc defines Christian?

Time for some history:
Alfred Rosenberg, Heinrich Himmler, and Adolf Hilter were all pagans. They were all members of the Thule Gesellschaft, which was a Pagan Society in Austria and Germany. Hitler worshiped Oden, the Nordic God. His favorite piece of music was Wagner’s Walkürenritt (In English “Flight of the Valkyries.” ) He fantasized about the Walküren flying down from the heavens and lifting up the dead German Kriegeren (soldiers) and taking them to Valhalla (the nordic heaven). Hitler encouraged the idea of an Aryan Christ which would replace Jesus Christ. He advocated something that’s been labeled Positive Christianity. P.C. rejects the entire Old Testament and focuses on the notion of the aforementioned Ayran Christ.

All this crap originated with Alfred Rosenberg. Rosenberg was an avowed pagan and wanted to twist Christianity into an instrument of the state. Any Christian pastor that opposed it was at best defrocked, often they were sent to a Concentration Camp, and sometimes they were sent to the Guillotine. Rosenberg position was chief philosopher for the National Socialist Party. He wrote about this stuff in the Nazi newspaper the Völkischer Beobachter, which loosely translates as the Racist Witness.

Rosenberg was hanged at Nurnberg. He wrote his memoirs while awaiting execution and in it stated that as a young man he witnessed a strong Nordic soldier bow down before the cross at a church and how it enraged him that an Aryan could bow down in humiliation before what he saw as the Jewish-poisoned Christian Church. That moment led him to the conclusion that Christianity and German Greatness were incompatible

It’s true that Hitler grew up Catholic, but then Jermaine Jackson grew up Jehovah’s Witness and now he’s a Muslim… so things change.

Don’t try and debate me on this weil ich verstehe Deutsch Geschichte viel besser, als Sie jemals wird. Ich bin fließend in Deutsch, und ich bin voll und ganz bereit, korrigieren Sie Ihre Unsinn. (

Translation: because I understand German History far better that you ever will. I’m fluent in German and I’m fully prepared to correct your nonsense.)

Don’t bother accusing me of using a translation tool. German was my major in college. I know this stuff backwards and foward.

Haben Sie Fragen?
The Professor

Senor Felix says:
If someone suffers from say… Coulrophobia … does that means that this person really has an attraction to clowns and possibly even has secret desires to join the circus? It’s ridiculous.
This is merely a tired old debate trick dressed up in the trappings of pop-psychology.

If he gets a sexually aroused at the circus, yes maybe he might be into clowns if not, it is probably just a fear of clowns.

Researchers Henry Adams, Lester Wright, Jr., and Bethany Lohr University of Georgia this study, 64 self-reported straight males with a mean age of 20.3 years were divided into two groups (“non-homophobic men” and “homophobic men”) on the basis of their scores on a questionnaire measure of aversion to gay males. Here, homophobia was operationally defined as the degree of “dread” experienced when placed in close quarters with a homosexual—basically, how comfortable or uncomfortable the person was in interacting with gay people. Each participant then agreed to attach a penile plethysmograph to his penis. this plethysmograph device is “a mercury-in-rubber circumferential strain gauge used to measure erectile responses to sexual stimuli. When attached, changes in the circumference of the penis cause changes in the electrical resistance of the mercury column.” Previous research with this apparatusconfirmed that significant changes in circumference occur only duringsexual stimulation during sleep.
Next, the participants were placed in a private chamber and presented with three 4-minute segments of graphic pornography. The three video snippets represented straight porn (scenes of fellatio and vaginal intercourse), lesbian porn (scenes of cunnilingus or tribadism), and gay male porn (scenes of fellatio and anal intercourse). Following each randomly ordered video presentation, the participant rated how sexually aroused he felt and also his degree of penile erection. Can you guess the results?
Both groups—non-homophobic and homophobic men—showed significant engorgement to the straight and lesbian porn and their subjective ratings of arousal matched their penile plethsymograph measure for these two types of video. However, as predicted, only the homophobic men showed a significant increase in penile circumference in response to the gay male porn: specifically, 26 percent of these homophobic men showed “moderate tumescence” (6-12 mm) to this video and 54 percent showed “definite tumescence” (more than 12 mm). (In contrast, for the non-homophobic

dudley says:
July 7, 2009 at 3:34 pm
cg,

so you see these “gay bashers” as potential sex partners?

maybe the gay basher views his victom as a potential partner

er geboren wurde katholisch, verzichtet er nie öffentlich seine Katholizismus, und er schrieb in “Mein Kampf”, “mich mit der Verteidigung gegen die Juden, Ich kämpfe für die Arbeit des Herrn”
den Holocaust markiert den Höhepunkt der … zweihundert Jahre Christian fulminanten gegen die Juden “und daher” wissentlich oder nicht, die Nazis waren Vertreter der Religion.
Sie sind so wütend

you did use a translator otherwise your german to english translation wouldn’t be exactly the same. You would most like write it slightly different

Do you understand what I am saying? you wrote this freehand, and proceeded to translate it to english, but its exactly the same. wouldn’t there be slight differences? I took your german rant entered it into the translator and its exactly the same no difference? english, german, french they have different words that have the same thing. Doing it freehand that would show up.

Marc,

I figured you’d get hung up on the German… A few points…. you and CG do have a have a point regarding the study… there are cases of closeted homosexuals exhibiting anger, rage and violence because of their self-loathing. E.g. Jeffery Dahmer, Ricky Lee Green
Regarding the test though… Gays always claim that pedophile who molest boys aren’t gay… I’d like to enroll a few in your study and see how things work out.

This is going to be my last post unless FW Weekly blogs on it again. I’ll give you the last word, but since I’m a Methodist I’d like to end with John Wesley’s Letter to an Alcoholic. I think it really is applicabile to people in your situation.

“You are a human being! God made you human, but you have converted yourself into an animal. What is the difference between a human and an animal? Is it not, perhaps, reasoning and understanding? But you have wasted your ability to reason and divested yourself of understanding.

You have saddened God’s Spirit sending it further and further away from you; if there should remain some spark of kindness in your soul; you drown it and extinguish it immediately you are ready for the devil to do his work. You have stripped yourself of all goodness and virtue, and filled your heart with all that is evil, mundane, sensual and demonic.
You have forced God’s Spirit to depart from you, because you are not disposed to tolerate a reprimand, and you have given yourself like a blind person into the hands of the devil, permitting him to guide you according to his will. You cannot call yourself a Christian! You cannot call yourself human! You have sunken lower than the majority of beasts that are destined to perish.
What kind of friend is he who can support this, or even worse, persuade you to do it? They are criminals; they are your worst enemies. These are the category of friends who while smiling with you stick a dagger in your back.
Repent! Look at yourself and see how wretched you are. Ask God to convince you to the depths of your being. How often have you returned to crucify the Son of God and expose him to public share! Pray that you may get to know yourself inwardly and outwardly, with all your sin, your guilt and your weakness.”

buddy says figured you’d get hung up on the German…
You lied every thing you posted is just white noise, your opinion means nothing.
Goodbye and may god forgive for you know not what you do

What is the difference between a human and an animal?
Opposable Thumbs?

Marc, Apes and old world monkeys have opposable thumbs. I don’t think even you would classify apes as humans–or would you? Heck after all of your other fine displays of reasoning…….

What if some of us here with viewpoints that oppose yours actually know each other? What if I know that Professor Buddy is fluent in German? Think about how your assertions make you look to others. You are an imbecile left with nothing more than your poor assumptions. But you don’t really care now, do you?

Being gay is comparable to alcoholism? What a ridiculous cop-out.

It is possible for one to be a healthy, happy, well-adjusted individual AND a homosexual at the same time. It is very unlikely, however, that an alcoholic will ever be able to lead any semblance of a normal life.

Homosexuals designed the Sistine Chapel, cracked the Nazi enigma code*, wrote magnificent ballets and operas, and fought communist regimes in Eastern Europe. How can a drunkard or a heroin addict accomplish any of these things?

Drunkards harm their immediate family members and loved ones through their reckless behavior. On the other hand, if you are a teenager in a fundamentalist Christian home who comes out of the closet (or is outed, which is more likely the case), you will be kicked out of your house, openly hated, or sent to a boot camp.

In Islamic countries (where there is little or no exposure to the “gay agenda”– so much for homosexuality being a choice!), gays are put to death and tortured in all sorts of gruesome ways.

A gay family was among those who perished during the 9/11 attacks. Mainstream evangelical Christians (Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson) mocked their deaths by claiming that their behavior was responsible for the actions of the Islamic terrorists.

In addition, people choose to drink alcohol or imbibe drugs. When the hell do gays “choose” their same-sex attraction? When exactly did you choose to be heterosexual?

*Alan Turing, whose contributions to the field of computer science have saved millions of lives from WWII to the present day, was OUTED as a homosexual and forced by a very homophobic government to take hormonal treatments that ruined his mind and caused him to commit suicide.

But no, you don’t focus on the good aspects of his character, he is nothing to you but a sexual deviant and a degenerate pervert.

If your religion forbids homosexual acts, that is fine, but do NOT use the government to try to deny rights to others.

Despite what you may have heard on talk radio, even in New England, churches are free to preach that homosexuality is a sin and condemn same-sex behavior. Although there have been lawsuits by gays against churches, they tend to be the exception to the rule, and the vast majority of them are overturned by courts, the same ones that granted them rights in Massachusetts and in Iowa.

The only instances where these lawsuits have been justified in when private/religious institutions such as the Boy Scouts or Catholic charities use federal government dollars to discriminate against others, thereby violating the establishment clause. If a church adoption agency receives federal dollars and discriminates against gays in a state in which such discrimination is illegal, it should be shut down or denied federal funding.

Even the ACLU (which represents the far left in America) agrees that churches should be free to preach any opinion whatsoever on homosexuality. The ACLU have defended people from neo-nazis to Rush Limbaugh in court cases where they were sued for exercising their freedom of speech.

Gays are not going to convert your children or recruit them to your lifestyle. Some of your immediate family members are most certainly gay, they simply haven’t come out of the closet due to societal and religious pressures. Statistics show that less than 2% of convicted pedophiles are homosexuals, when the 2000 census indicates that 4% of Americans identify themselves as homosexual.

Nearly every male pedophile who rapes a boy demonstrates absolutely no attraction to adults of their same gender, and lesbian pederasts are rarer than virgins at a spring break party in Ft. Lauderdale.

Countless societies throughout antiquity, including the two that have contributed the most to Western civilization (the Greeks and the Romans), have survived for centuries despite their tolerance of homosexuality.

Native American societies in all parts of North and South America have tolerated “two-spirit” unions between people of the same gender. They did NOT breed themselves into nonexistence, since homosexuality is not an active choice. White Christians did that job for them!

Incidentally, the Roman Empire only collapsed roughly a century after Christianity was declared to be its official religion, yet I never hear any Christians arguing that Christians led to the downfall of Roman civilization.

Please excuse grammar/spelling errors in my last two posts, English is not my first language.

Ralph he lied, and I called him on it that is why he ran away with his tail between his legs. Dont lower yourself to his level, oh wait to late!

Marc–

history, statistics, and sociological evidence are on your side, so I suggest that you use it when you debate with anybody.

Identical twin studies confirm that homosexuality does have a genetic component, but because genetics is a remarkably primitive science (it’s barely been 50-60 years since the discovery of the structure of DNA), and because thousands and thousands of genes are responsible for behavioral traits, it’ll be a while before any scientist isolates “gay genes”.*

Geneticists do not know which genes are responsible for left-handedness, although nobody believes that left-handedness is a choice! It is also hard for them to determine which genes are responsible for traits such as tall height, small feet, etc. because so many of them are polygenic.

Mendel knew that genetic inheritance was responsible for physical traits in pea plants, despite the fact that he had no idea what a “gene” was or where it was located in the cell. Similarly ,geneticists can prove that certain behaviors or traits are genetic based on pedigree history and other forms of indirect observation. The fact that nobody has isolated a human “gay gene” is absolutely irrelevant.

People who believe that homosexuality is a wicked choice made by desperate sinners who disobey God will be hard-pressed to explain why homosexual and bisexual behavior is ubiquitous among thousands of animal species, sometimes in the form of monogamous relationships. It is not difficult for anyone to find pet owners in their area who have gay cats or dogs.

*Curiously enough, geneticists HAVE found gay genes in Drosophila fruit flies, whose genomes are far less complicated than our own and have been studied in detail for decades. Because they are recessive, they will exist for millions of years, fluctuating according to Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium, despite the fact that homosexual animals do not produce offspring. Gay genes may even be beneficial to populations that are in danger of exceeding the limits of their environment.

It is only a matter of time before researchers manage to isolate some gay genes in human beings, but I predict this will harm the gay community, since mothers may abort their children for being gay or abandon them at an early age.

Thomas Jefferson, 1787

Religion. Your reason is now mature enough to examine this object. In the first place, divest yourself of all bias in favor of novelty and singularity of opinion. Indulge them in any other subject rather than that of religion. It is too important, and the consequences of error may be too serious. On the other hand, shake off all the fears and servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. You will naturally examine first, the religion of your own country. Read the Bible, then as you would read Livy or Tacitus. The facts which are within the ordinary course of nature, you will believe on the authority of the writer, as you do those of the same kind in Livy and Tacitus. The testimony of the writer weighs in their favor, in one scale, and their not being against the laws of nature, does not weigh against them. But those facts in the Bible which contradict the laws of nature, must be examined with more care, and under a variety of faces. Here you must recur to the pretensions of the writer to inspiration from God. Examine upon what evidence his pretensions are founded, and whether that evidence is so strong, as that its falsehood would be more improbable than a change in the laws of nature, in the case he relates. For example, in the book of Joshua, we are told, the sun stood still several hours. Were we to read that fact in Livy or Tacitus, we should class it with their showers of blood, speaking of statues, beasts, etc. But it is said, that the writer of that book was inspired. Examine, therefore, candidly, what evidence there is of his having been inspired. The pretension is entitled to your inquiry, because millions believe it. On the other hand, you are astronomer enough to know how contrary it is to the law of nature that a body revolving on its axis, as the earth does, should have stopped, should not, by that sudden stoppage, have prostrated animals, trees, buildings, and should after a certain time gave resumed its revolution, and that without a second general prostration. Is this arrest of the earth’s motion, or the evidence which affirms it, most within the law of probabilities? You will next read the New Testament. It is the history of a personage called Jesus. Keep in your eye the opposite pretensions: 1, of those who say he was begotten by God, born of a virgin, suspended and reversed the laws of nature at will, and ascended bodily into heaven; and 2, of those who say he was a man of illegitimate birth, of a benevolent heart, enthusiastic mind, who set out without pretensions to divinity, ended in believing them, and was punished capitally for sedition, by being gibbeted, according to the Roman law, which punished the first commission of that offence by whipping, and the second by exile, or death “in furea”….
Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it ends in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise, and the love of others which it will procure you. If you find reason to believe there is a God, a consciousness that you are acting under his eye, and that he approves you, will be a vast additional incitement; if that there be a future state, the hope of a happy existence in that increases the appetite to deserve it; if that Jesus was also a God, you will be comforted by a belief of his aid and love. In fine, I repeat, you must lay aside all prejudice on both sides, and neither believe nor reject anything, because any other persons, or description of persons, have rejected or believed it. Your own reason is the only oracle given you by heaven, and you are answerable, not for the rightness, but uprightness of the decision. I forgot to observe, when speaking of the New Testament, that you should read all the histories of Christ, as well of those whom a council of ecclesiastics have decided for us, to be Pseudo-evangelists, as those they named Evangelists. Because these Pseudo-evangelists pretended to inspiration, as much as the others, and you are to judge their pretensions by your own reason, and not by the reason of those ecclesiastics. Most of these are lost. There are some, however, still extant, collected by Fabricius, which I will endeavor to get and send you.

Taciturn,

Thank you for the thoughtful and eloquent posts. If there is a genetic component to homosexuality as in the example you cited regarding Drosophila, one has to remember that an organism is a product of nature and nurture. The presence of a genetic marker for a disease is found by performing linkage analysis. Many of the gay linkage work was done in the mid-1990s and produced very little evidence of strong linkage scores (logarithm of odds scores were not significant for markers). Molecular biology has most assuredly advanced since then with the emergence of microarray analysis whereby millions of genetic markers (usually in the form of single nucleotide polymorphisms) can fit on a single “chip.” I looked at the primary literature and found very few studies performed since the mid to late 1990s. Why is this. There has to be an interest.

Getting back to Drosophila, you mentioned Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium (p^2 +2pq +q^2 = 1). Yeah, I get it. The gay allele (if there is in fact one) will always be recessive for the reason that you cited:

“…despite the fact that homosexual animals do not produce offspring.”

Taciturn, every allele in a population follows Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium; the ones that are not productive evolutionarily are selected against. Thus, an allele that produces a strong urge in an organism to not participate in the vertical transmission of said allele from parent to offspring through normal sexual reproduction is, in a sense, an intrinsic evolutionary failure.

As for gay animals, they do not have the ability to reason. If someone does have homosexual tendencies, why do they have to act on them? Therein lies the choice. I, as a male, have been completely faithful to my wife, despite the evolutionary drive that males have to spread their seed far and wide. Some men do not have the fortitude to deal with this urge and choose to become unfaithful. This control is exactly the mechanism that differentiates us from animals. I do not consider this example that you stated as very convincing evidence in favor of homosexuality. Are humans completely controlled by their genetic constitution? If so, then we are merely robots programmed with software in the form of our DNA, not able to reason. We are slaves to our molecules. I do not accept this.

Tacitus,

Didn’t mean to misspell your name.

tacitus Your post are amazing thoughtful just beautiful, I have quoted studies, medical doctors, documented history. It means nothing to them. the only reason Ralph is upset at me, is because I got one of the friends so upset he threatened physical violence.
buddy says:

July 5, 2009 at 7:34 pm
Let’s do an experiment…

I’ll go to a San Francisco Gay Pride parade and read Romans Chapter 1 from a megaphone and you’ll go to a NASCAR event and hold hands with your boyfriend. Let’s see who gets their ass kicked first.

Tacitus one more thing you are not going to win a debate with these guys (not in their minds), but you can manipulate them into showing their true nature hatred, and bigotry. That is what people need to see its the only way you can change anything.

Marc,
Buddy was not threatening violence with his “experiment.” He was merely illustrating that it is more likely that he would be harrassed for reading from the Bible in San Fran than if you were holding hands with your partner at a race.

You have proven nothing with your arguments, nor will you ever.

Marc, by the way, I am not upset with you. I pity you. I can tell that you are extremely frustrated and probably confused. This is evident in your argumentative style. Your greatest tool seems to be the use of the “hate card.”

Frustrated and confused? being who I am is not confusion. Trying to be straight in order to please others is.

Again, Ralph, let me reiterate what I said before:

“It is possible for one to be a healthy, happy, well-adjusted individual AND a homosexual at the same time. It is very unlikely, however, that an alcoholic will ever be able to lead any semblance of a normal life.”

Of course the behavior of animals should have little or no bearing on the morality (or lack thereof) of homosexuality. Animals regularly engage in all sorts of behaviors that human beings consider to be immoral, such as cannibalism, rape, and infanticide.

I was merely trying to debunk the notion that homosexuality is somehow “unnatural”, when countless studies on human and animal behavior prove that it is. If kleptomaniacs or murderers have a genetic predisposition to commit more robberies and homicides, that in no way excuses their crime.

All the best psychological and sociological evidence leads me to believe that homosexuality cannot be classified as a crime, when sexual acts between two consenting, responsible (emphasis on responsible) adults cannot harm anybody but themselves.

It is extremely unlikely that public acceptance of gays will somehow increase the frequency of homosexual behavior. The French decriminalized sodomy during their revolution during the 18th century, and subsequent French governments have either ignored or turned a blind eye to homosexual behavior until the present day– yet demographics show that France has one of the healthiest birth rates (both Muslim and non-Muslim) in Western Europe.

“Taciturn, every allele in a population follows Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium; the ones that are not productive evolutionarily are selected against. Thus, an allele that produces a strong urge in an organism to not participate in the vertical transmission of said allele from parent to offspring through normal sexual reproduction is, in a sense, an intrinsic evolutionary failure.”

This in no way precludes the possibility of “gay genes” being linked to other genes that do increase evolutionary fitness, or the likely chance that recessive gay genes are subject to incomplete dominance, resulting in an overall higher fitness for individuals with only one copy of the allele.

I have a few friends who are microbiologists, and they tell me that their colleagues tend to be very tolerant of homosexuality, and have absolutely no interest in proving or disproving the existence of “gay genes”, especially when biological explanations of something as complicated as human behavior requires active collaboration between scientists and social scientists in multiple disciplines, something that is very lacking in academia.

And to be honest, they tell me that they completely abhor the idea of a genetic origin of homosexuality, because this will result in the termination of fetuses whose parents desire “normal children” and other hideous forms of discrimination.

Statistics showing higher rates of drug abuse, irresponsible sexual activity, depression, promiscuity, etc. among homosexuals are often exaggerated or distorted by anti-gay activists for nefarious purposes, and it must be admitted that too many homosexuals pretend that these problems don’t exist or refuse to broach them. Nevertheless, I have yet to see any evidence that these characteristics are *intrinsic* to same-sex attraction, instead of resulting from other environmental factors that may be more likely to cause them.

Ralph, thank you for bothering to read my posts. I know my sentences tend to ramble on needlessly, so I appreciate your patience!

Studies of homosexuals in Sweden and Netherlands (two of the most socially liberal countries in Europe) show that homosexuals abroad demonstrate lower levels of alcoholism, HIV transmission, etc. than homosexuals in the United States, although promiscuity tends to be a worrisome problem among both populations.

“As for gay animals, they do not have the ability to reason. If someone does have homosexual tendencies, why do they have to act on them? Therein lies the choice.”

I’m sorry, I consider this argument to be unreasonable. Forced celibacy is one of the cruelest punishments you can ever impose on a human being. Very few people ever choose celibacy voluntarily, and if Catholic priests are any indication, few who choose it are capable of practicing it faithfully.

Even married prisoners sentenced to life without parole are sometimes allowed breaks for conjugal relations. Either way, it is inevitable that homosexual men in repressive societies will move their practices underground, where they are more likely to engage in risky sexual behavior that harms both homosexual and heterosexual populations.

I am not asking Christians to deny what their scriptures say about homosexuality. That is entirely their business, and I have no constitutional right to interfere. However, I contend that it is a breach of justice to deny two consulting adults the right to their happiness, especially when homosexuals have proven to be able to form long-term monogamous relationships, something that is uncommon among both gays and straights in contemporary America.

Ralph, thank you for the intelligent and rational debate. My sentences tend to ramble on needlessly, and I appreciate you for bothering to read them.

From a Biblical perspective, homosexuality is just as bad as premarital sex or divorce-and-remarriage (quick! somebody alert Anita Bryant, Rush Limbaugh, and Newt Gingrich!*), yet nobody proposes federal amendments discouraging these two consensual acts.

And as for exposing homosexuality to children– the best way for you to remove the “gay lifestyle” from the public sphere is to deny gay activists the privilege of complaining about anything. In public, I recommend that religious conservatives treat homosexuality as something mundane and unspectacular, while continuing to condemn it in private, the same way they treat drinking and smoking.

Most people have no idea how boring and ordinary the majority of homosexuals truly are, and many of them do adhere to conservative positions on foreign policy and the economy. You could never guess that they were gay merely based on their appearance and behavior.

To conclude, American conservatives harm their cause when they drag gay marriage into the spotlight during every election cycle. Most Americans simply don’t care, and neither do millions of young college-educated republicans. Your children are more likely to learn about gay marriage while listening to talk radio or by watching FOX news than by attending public school in San Francisco.

*The list of self-described “Christian Conservatives” in this country who engage in these forbidden sexual behaviors is appallingly long.

I do not adhere to their religious scriptures myself, but I cannot help but laugh when people argue that God will turn America into brimstone and rubble because two men can get hitched in Iowa. If you believe in the literal truth of the Bible, the USA was well on that path over a century ago.

BTW I was referring to a study done at an Austrian university in 2005, and the T-tests did demonstrate an unmistakable difference in behavior.

There is some evidence that sexual orientation may change during a person’s lifetime, but even these cases are largely involuntary. The vast majority of “ex-gay ministries” in the United States have appallingly high recidivism rates, and it doesn’t help when prominent Christians who claim to have been “cured” from their homosexuality (John Paulk, Peterson Caprano, Matthew Manning etc.) end up getting caught with their pants down in a gay bar.

People who decide that their religion is more important than their romantic life have every right to do so, i don’t judge them. But I have witnessed how much psychological harm this does to gay teens who cannot “cure themselves”, despite their tears and hardest efforts.

Ex-gay conversion stories tend to follow a common template or stereotype that makes me cringe, usually describing how the individual in question acquired same-sex attraction after being sexually molested, or because of a terrible relationship with his father. This is crude and insulting to gays and lesbians, who nonetheless have no right to condemn gays who do choose celibacy or heterosexual marriage.

Ralph–

While taking a break from my paper grading (for the umpteenth time, I prefer to add thoughts as I remember them while working), I decided to browse through my comments and see if I could re-frame them to avoid any misunderstandings, and I noticed that I forgot to respond to the point you made earlier–

Yes, if a gay man infects another gay man with HIV through malice or negligence, that is a crime. However the designation “hate crime” applies only to acts that target an individual because of his or her immutable characteristics, and are therefore terrorize an entire community that shares the trait in question (e.g. burning a cross terrorizes all black Americans, whether or not they live in that area). That sounds wonderfully vague, I know, and I doubt it does anything to help the plight of American minority groups.

There is a subculture among American gays where individuals willingly seek HIV-positive partners to infect them with the virus, either for the cheap thrill, or self-hatred, or because they think catching it is inevitable.

The vast majority of educated gays condemn and repudiate this behavior, and it is certainly a hate crime to endorse it. “Bug catching” certainly exists, but it is neither prevalent nor mainstream among homosexuals, and it is certainly not intrinsic to same-sex attraction.

http://www.reason.com/blog/show/100726.html

If you find gays who grow defensive when you mention this or deny it exists (although they probably have heard of it at least once), this is probably because people automatically associate this destructive activity with homosexual love, instead of (correctly) attributing it to emotional disturbances such as low self-esteem or compulsive behavior.

Same-sex activity carries risks, but education and responsibility can reduce or eliminate most of them, and gays are no less capable of responsible behavior than anyone else. Heterosexuals participate in swingers’ clubs and BDSM with impunity, while both gay and straight San Franciscans were responsible for starting the notorious Folsom Street sex fair.

Tacitus,

Again, I appreciate the rational and intellectual discourse. I am at work and do not have time to respond now. I will do so later.

The othe night I went to the Rainbow Lounge with a few friend for drinks and there was a guy over by the pool table holding what looked like a small thumb drive for a computer. He was kind of holding it down and pointing it. (like he was filming us) One of my friends was suspicous and walked over and the guy took off. An hour later when we left he was sitting in his car. When he saw us he peeled out and left.

Professor Buddy says:
“Regarding the test though… Gays always claim that pedophile who molest boys aren’t gay… I’d like to enroll a few in your study and see how things work out.”
Looks like they did a study in Canada. So how does that work out for you?

Canadian researchers observed how homosexual and heterosexual adult men responded to slides of males and females of various ages (child, pubescent, and mature adult). All of the research subjects were first screened to ensure that they preferred physically mature sexual partners. In some of the slides shown to subjects, the model was clothed; in others, he or she was nude. The slides were accompanied by audio recordings. The recordings paired with the nude models described an imaginary sexual interaction between the model and the subject. The recordings paired with the pictures of clothed models described the model engaging in neutral activities (e.g., swimming). To measure sexual arousal, changes in the subjects’ penis volume were monitored while they watched the slides and listened to the audiotapes. The researchers found that homosexual males responded no more to male children than heterosexual males responded to female children
Kurt Freund, MD, DSc
Clarke Institute of Psychiatry Toronto, Canada

Why do we have to be sensitive & tolerant towards, and give special rights to, those engaged in poop sex & dildo use? I just can’t figure out how one can get a boner thinking about another man’s hairy spicy doughnut ring & poop chute for poop sex – or how two women can demand special rights because they masturbate together with a didlo.

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